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Police "judgement" versus Law

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Police "judgement" versus Law

Old 08-26-11, 07:33 AM
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Well I talked with the 2nd in command at the police station who is now (different from the officer) telling me they are worried about her being abducted. I politely reminded him she could be abducted from my front yard or between here and the bus stop realistically and this is a risk every child faces every day in all places.

He went on to say he would look into this and if child protective serves says I'm wrong blah blah blah but that isn't too much of a concern to me because there is no law being violated and I am certainly not expecting her to ride in unacceptable conditions. I will keep y'all updated as to what happens with this situation for sure.
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Old 08-26-11, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by UberGeek
A book is not law. And, because one book was written, doesn't necessarily make it "The One True Way" to rear a child... If it were, it would be the only book every written after the fact on the subject, and all child psychologists would be using that in treatment courses.
But the problem here is not a legal one; the problem is perception of risk. The officer's perception of risk is way out of proportion with reality. The book I suggested is all about addressing the highly distorted perception of risk that people have, which ends up placing what many people consider to be unreasonable constraints on child independence. Without compelling evidence that what the child is doing is more dangerous than other everyday activities in which the police do not interfere, then the choice should be left to the parent.
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Old 08-26-11, 08:01 AM
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People see risks differently. My daughters were 9 and 7 when their mother died. So I was the one going to the PTA meetings and involved with all the other activities. Even though I always made my own judgments about how to handle things myself, I always watched what the other parents (mostly moms) did, hoping to learn more.
I live in the suburbs. Some of the places the kids went were on main roads, but they had a good sidewalk. My kids have lots of friends, and I got to know almost all the other parents. Only one out of maybe 30 or more pairs of parents would let the kids do what your daughter does at that age. Watching your spouse drop dead can make one over protective, but of course the risk does not change. That's why I was wondering about the police officers perception of risk.
I would guess that almost all of the other parents seeing your daughter ride to school have a different perception of risk than you do. That probably won't change. My limited interaction with that kind of thing is that the officer needed to do something because of the complaints. And he probably was doing what he thought was the right thing anyway. Do you know any of the other parents on that road? Might be interesting to see why they have that opinion.
I wonder how many people in this thread have kids around that age. It would be interesting to see what that does to their point of view.

in the 1950's my parents let me walk a few blocks to elementary school. I walked to school with a huge Bowie Knife ( about a 6 inch blade) in the sheath on my belt**********?? I don't remember what happened at school when I got there. It was about 5-6 blocks. There was an adult crossing guard at the only road crossed.
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Old 08-26-11, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
But the problem here is not a legal one; the problem is perception of risk. The officer's perception of risk is way out of proportion with reality. The book I suggested is all about addressing the highly distorted perception of risk that people have, which ends up placing what many people consider to be unreasonable constraints on child independence. Without compelling evidence that what the child is doing is more dangerous than other everyday activities in which the police do not interfere, then the choice should be left to the parent.
And, that book is not law. There's some support out there for the "Helicopter Parent" as well. And, in many areas, Free Ranging Kids is a dangerous proposition at best.

And, many times, society removes the risk decision from parents; because parents can, and often are; ****ing ********.
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Old 08-26-11, 08:09 AM
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I rode bikes to school from 4th grade year until the end of 8th grade in middle school. Not only did I ride to school, I rode to the bridge and lakes to fish, to my friends houses miles away, to the grocery store for my parents if they needed small things, to get mcD's with friends, and anything else I could manage to ride for. I sure wasn't about to waste my time walking and my parents didn't want to spend twice as much gas running my little annoying butt around town.

I got a haro revo when I was roughly 11 or 12, but I rode walmart bikes before that. I remember every last one of them.

I'm 24 now, just got a new bike, and plan to do just the same.
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Old 08-26-11, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeMomTn
Well my husband talked with the officer at the school this morning who says they have been receiving 'complaints' about a young child riding to school and back (remember this is a distance of 1 mile). Not that the child was doing anything unsafe, just that she was riding to and from school.And it is there 'policy' in issues of safety to inform child protective services. He did write a report regarding this so I will go down today and pick that up (I want a copy for my records)
Well there you go. If this is in fact true it answers a lot of questions. Anytime a complaint is made to the police about the safety of a child they are going to investigate to cover their rear end. Many times these complaints are done by people who literally have nothing better to do than call the police every time they perceive a problem real or imagined. As far as the police are concerned they can check the box and informed the complainant that they talked to the parents and have notified the proper agency and it is no longer their problem. This also covers them if in the future something does occur. The person you really want to talk to is the complainant, if in fact they do exist and did not call in anonymously. Some of these people just won't stop and if they think the police haven't acted on their complainant in a manner to their satisfaction it is only a matter of time before some of these people will try and address the situation with either you or your child.
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Old 08-26-11, 08:17 AM
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I could not even begin to estimate the number of cycling miles I pedaled by the age of 10. Times sure have changed, way too much "nannyism" in the U.S. today.
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Old 08-26-11, 08:34 AM
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That officer was an ass, but I suspect it stems from the ass who called in a complaint. Still, that threat was way out of line and I'd visit with the police chief.

BTW--it is a bad idea to contact child protection services. They are not there to judge your parenting methods unless you neglect your children, which you clearly aren't. Key to this whole this is fitness.

I hope one day your daughter can find a friend to ride with, and then more friends and finally, in the end, change the mindset of your community.
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Old 08-26-11, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by lostarchitect
Most abductions, of course, are by known persons. City/country has little to do with it.
True, however it is the stranger abductions that are the most dangerous for the child.

From the amber alert website:
Originally Posted by amberalertdotgov
Law Enforcement Confirms an Abduction

AMBER plans require law enforcement to confirm an abduction prior to issuing an alert. This is essential when determining the level of risk to the child. Clearly, stranger abductions are the most dangerous for children and thus are primary to the mission of an AMBER Alert.

Risk of Serious Bodily Injury or Death

Plans require a child be at risk for serious bodily harm or death before an alert can be issued. This element is clearly related to law enforcement’s recognition that stranger abductions represent the greatest danger to children.

Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean there is no reason for concern. To this day the county I live in and the surrounding counties are still in shock over a child abduction that occurred under very similar circumstances to what this officer is addressing.
Here is an excerpt from the case I'm talking about: Sara Ann Wood, Wood was last seen riding her pink and white ten-speed mountain bicycle to her family's residence on Hacadam Road in Frankfort, New York on August 18, 1993. She was returning from Norwich Corners Church on Roberts Road and Gaffenburg Road in Frankfort, where she attended summer Bible school. The church was less than a mile from her house. Wood picked up some posterboard, a church song book, and some 8-by-10-inch plastic transparencies at the church before heading home. She apparently made it safely down Roberts Road and was last seen pedaling up a steep hill on Hacadam Road, four-tenths of a mile from her residence. Wood's bicycle and the supplies she'd picked up were discovered in an area of brush several hundred feet off of Hacadam Road later in the evening. The bicycle was leaning against a tree and the supplies were scattered nearby. Lewis Lent,suspected serial killer and child abductor, would later admit to Wood's abduction an murder.

Just because something is extremely rare doesn't mean steps to avoid is shouldn't be taken or at the very least suggested. I am all for any legal action that police can take to prevent an incident like this from occurring again. In this case it seems the officer informed the parents of a potential safety risk. It appears the message was not delivered clearly or properly and seemed to condemn instead of properly inform. That's a shame because what could have been an important message has been interpreted, by some, as a meddling, bored police officer abusing his authority.

In the end, as it appears no laws are being broken, it is a judgement call for the parents to make. Every parent must find their own balance between living with fear and living. As a parent, if I were the OP, I would just consider the officer's opinion as just that an opinion. I would give his opinion the weight I felt it deserved in the future and adjust my decision according to my best judgement with the additional information I now have.

Last edited by NYgreyrider; 08-26-11 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 08-26-11, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by thdave
That officer was an ass, but I suspect it stems from the ass who called in a complaint. Still, that threat was way out of line and I'd visit with the police chief.

BTW--it is a bad idea to contact child protection services. They are not there to judge your parenting methods unless you neglect your children, which you clearly aren't.
I second this. Go to the chief but unless the police get CPS involved there is no reason to involve them in this. Not that you have anything to hide nor are you doing anything wrong but the last thing you want is an open CPS file. I don't know how things work where you are but in some places CPS has minimum requirements they have to do (follow up visits, child and neighbor interviews) and in some instances have greater authority than the police to invade your privacy. Last thing you need is them doing unannounced follow-up visits on something that never should have been sent to them in the first place. One government agency in your life is more than enough.

Last edited by NYgreyrider; 08-26-11 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 08-26-11, 09:35 AM
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This is absurd

Well the chief of police called me back (after talking to the district attorney) And said although she is not violating any laws until they hear from child protective services that if I allow her to ride her bike I will breaking the law by putting her in an unsafe position.
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Old 08-26-11, 09:46 AM
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I would like to think that I would not buckle under and I would continue to allow her to ride. Reality and all the pressures involved may dictate otherwise but I hope circumstances allow you to fight this.
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Old 08-26-11, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NYgreyrider
Just because something is extremely rare doesn't mean steps to avoid is shouldn't be taken or at the very least suggested.
I could be struck by lightning, therefore I should never leave my house again.

Seriously, that's effectively what you're saying. People are giving up their basic freedoms and enjoyment of life over things that are extremely unlikely to happen. We've become a nation of cowards, ruled by irrational fear.

The police in this case are idiots. I want to know what specific law they're going to claim is being broken.
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Old 08-26-11, 09:57 AM
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Does Child Protective Services want a media frenzy? Because that's exactly what they would get if they threaten the mother over this. All the morning talk shows will start calling when they find out.
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Old 08-26-11, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeMomTn
Well the chief of police called me back (after talking to the district attorney) And said although she is not violating any laws until they hear from child protective services that if I allow her to ride her bike I will breaking the law by putting her in an unsafe position.
"Unsafe position" my ass. How does it suddenly become unsafe when she turns 14 (all in the officer's opinion of course)? Are adults never abducted? Reading this thread has me incredibly riled up. I hope these idiots in-charge get what they deserve.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm over 30 and have received the same kind of BS, lame advice from the police in my area. "What you are doing isn't illegal but it's unsafe so stop it."
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Old 08-26-11, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeMomTn
Well the chief of police called me back (after talking to the district attorney) And said although she is not violating any laws until they hear from child protective services that if I allow her to ride her bike I will breaking the law by putting her in an unsafe position.
So presumably they'll also be prosecuting every bike shop that sells those lethal devices we always used to call childrens' bikes? This is ridiculous. Is she allowed to cross the road any more?
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Old 08-26-11, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeMomTn
I live in Elizabethton Tennessee and I have no idea of our local groups around here.
This club puts on a road race starting in Elizabethton each year, so they may be a good point of contact - https://www.tricitiesroadclub.org/
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Old 08-26-11, 10:31 AM
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Do what BikeLawyer suggests. Get a lawyer. Now.
Also, do what sggoodri suggests. Call all of the local (and national!) media. Now.

I agree, this is ridiculous. All of my friends and I rode our bikes every day on the crack-vial-riddled streets of New York when we were 10 back in 1987, and that was an UNSAFE neighborhood. I am alive and well and so are all of my friends who rode with me! Those early experiences gave me street smarts and confidence that have served me well into adulthood!
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Old 08-26-11, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by billdsd
I could be struck by lightning, therefore I should never leave my house again.

Seriously, that's effectively what you're saying. People are giving up their basic freedoms and enjoyment of life over things that are extremely unlikely to happen. We've become a nation of cowards, ruled by irrational fear.

The police in this case are idiots. I want to know what specific law they're going to claim is being broken.
Wow, that is what you took from that. Amazing. Let me try and simplify. What I'm saying is that things can happen and you need to base your decision on the likely hood of the event. Just because family abductions happen more than stranger abduction doesn't mean stranger abduction don't occur. Just because stranger abduction occur doesn't mean you stop living your life. I simply said you look at everything that could happen, determine what the likely hood that it might happen is, take any steps you feel necessary to avoid them and move out. The point being is just because something is rare doesn't mean you dismiss it completely from your decision making process nor do you give it more weight than it justifies. In this case I simply said the police were offering her some additional information, from their perspective, to base her decision on. At no time in any post did I say she should not let her child ride to school. Stuff happens. Am I never going to step outside because I might get struck by lighting. No. Am I going to step outside in a thunderstorm and hold a metal pole in the air. No. Why because its an unnecessary risk I can avoid. All I'm talking about is risk vs reward. Pretty simple concept to understand and most people base their decisions on it whether they realize it or not.

Cycling is a perfect example. Most people who cycle on roads know there is at least some possibility they could get hit by a car when they are out ridding. Yet we all still do it. However to lessen some of the risk many of us will wear a helmet or bright colors to protect ourselves and obey the rules of the road.

So in this case the OP can take your interpretation of my post and put her child in a bubble. Or she can simply weigh the rare chances of something happening to her child on her commute with all the other positive and negative factors that go along with letting her daughter ride to school and continue doing what she is doing or adjust this routine according to her perception of the risks involved.
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Old 08-26-11, 10:37 AM
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Their digging their own grave here.I would fight this tooth and nail.

I would have them show all of the case around your town where people have been abducted,I want to know why they are so concerned.Are children being abducted weeky around there? Monthly? When was the last time somebody disappeared officers? How long have these abductions been going on? How come I haven't read about this,is it a secret?The dogs in town have been disappearing and your afraid offenders they will move on to children?What is it that has you so concerned? Have bodies of children been showing up around town?

Officers....Why are the streets in my town too dangerous...TO WALK ON**********? If it's so dangerous,shouldn't there be some kind of sign or fence or SOMETHING warning us poor helpless citizens.If we all die from walking around town,you'll be out of a job....We don't want that now DO WE???? Officers,what other streets in town have restrictions on them I should know about? What is the age limit on this street anyways?

I hope you can fight this,they are just dead wrong on this.We don't need the police,child services or anyone else telling us where and how,we as U.S. citizens,supposedly in a free society,telling us how to move around town.I don't care what age they are.That's what parents are for,by the way,sounds like your doing a fine job!

If the police find a child wandering aimlessly around town or something just doesn't look right,fine.That's their job.If they get called into a situation,fine.

They have talked to the parent(s),everything is normal,better than normal it sounds like.It doesn't take a village to raise a child,only one good parent,hopefully two,but one is good enough,and that parent doesn't live at the police station or child services,they live with the child.They know better THAN ANYONE what is correct for THEIR child.We don't have to raise our children in some cookie cutter society that the police,child services or anyone else can think up.

Stick to your guns,your in the right!
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Old 08-26-11, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NYgreyrider
Or she can simply weigh the rare chances of something happening to her child on her commute with all the other positive and negative factors that go along with letting her daughter ride to school and continue doing what she is doing or adjust this routine according to her perception of the risks involved.
Which she already has obviously done. While you are attempting to make it seem like you are posting under the guise of "live and let live" all I am reading from you is FEAR MONGERING.
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Old 08-26-11, 11:03 AM
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How about sicking all the fat kid nazis on the police. They whine and howl about how fat kids are. Bike riding is good for kids. I find it amazing how many people think they should stick their noses in other peoples business.
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Old 08-26-11, 11:12 AM
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This all boils down to some nosy noisy neighbor who has contacted the police due to their fears that something might happen.

I can't help but wonder if the same neighbor also calls the fire department every time someone lights a BBQ.

One cannot help the Gladys Kravitzes of the world. We've become a nation of nosy nannys.

The big problem comes with having to deal CPS.
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Old 08-26-11, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeMomTn
Well the chief of police called me back (after talking to the district attorney) And said although she is not violating any laws until they hear from child protective services that if I allow her to ride her bike I will breaking the law by putting her in an unsafe position.
Well they are certainly not going to back down now that they presumably have the backing of the DA. Just the fact that the DA is willing to take a case on this means it is time to consult a lawyer because it seems unlikely that CPS will be the voice of reason here. I would recommended finding a lawyer then going to the media. It will help your case (in the court of public opinion) to have a mother's point of view and that of a lawyer. I don't think a cycling lawyer is what you need here as this is seeming less like a cycling issue and more as a perceived child safety issue. With CPS involved you're going to want to consult a lawyer that does family and criminal law.
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Old 08-26-11, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Which she already has obviously done. While you are attempting to make it seem like you are posting under the guise of "live and let live" all I am reading from you is FEAR MONGERING.
Then you clearly need to take a reading comprehension class.
My fear if anything is having her deal with CPS, which can be a nightmare. If there has already been a complaint, the police have become involved, CPS has been notified and the DA is willing to take a case on this then there are enough people lined up against her who some how perceive there is at least some safety concerns here. Get a judge who also agrees and this can go bad quickly for her. I'm not fear mongering I'm simply stating the case that they are going to lay out against her. It's great that everybody here, from the safety of their computer screen can tell her to fight the power and they use to ride their bikes through ghettos when they were five but they are not the ones that will be answering the door when CPS knocks. If she is going to fight this she should at least know the risks they are claiming she is putting her child in.

Last edited by NYgreyrider; 08-26-11 at 11:31 AM.
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