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The helmet thread

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The helmet thread

Old 07-02-12, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Many organized bicycling events require helmet usage due to insurance coverage requirements or other liability concerns.
(I could swear I've typed that before in this thread)
Have you ever validated there really is any insurance coverage "requirement" for helmet usage in the absence of any legal requirement?

I was told about an insurance company requirement for rides in my area. When questioned, the bike shop owner who informed me of the requirement, admitted that the "requirement" was essentially nothing more than a device the local club leaders used to keep out casual and recreational cyclists who don't fit the profile of the self declared "serious" club member cyclists who dominate the rides. The insurance company connection to the "requirement" was totally bogus.

"other liability concerns" could require the prohibition of ANYTHING some worrywort wishes to imagine could be a liability concern, including riding a bicycle in any manner.

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Old 07-02-12, 07:56 PM
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No, I've never put on a cycling event or contacted any insurance companies in preparation for doing so. Your premise may represent the reality of the situation.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
"other liability concerns" could require the prohibition of ANYTHING some worrywort wishes to imagine could be a liability concern, including riding a bicycle in any manner.
It could. Some of those rides oughtta require full leathers
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Old 07-03-12, 08:45 AM
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He makes a compelling argument and I generally think he's right. I wear a helmet now because I recently had a concussion bad enough to cause amnesia (not cycling related) and because I live in the worst country in the world with regard to road fatalities per capita.

Last edited by Omiak; 07-03-12 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 07-03-12, 10:09 AM
  #2779  
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Old 07-03-12, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by gna
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 07-03-12, 11:22 AM
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Okay, okay, having watched the talk... I'm just not sold. I understand the tradeoff on a population-wide basis of urging/legislating helmet use versus scaring people off bikes. On a personal level, though, I wouldn't ride without one.

One statement he made, though, intrigues me. I think he said that helmet wearers are 50% more likely to crash. I wonder whether the low-speed cycling transport crowd, which is largely helmetless, skews the data, and that a large proportion of helmet wearers engage in sport cycling, to include high speed road riding and road racing, and also MTBers pushing themselves on challenging courses. Of course they crash more; they are pushing the limits, which is why they are wearing their helmets to begin with.

One thing I've considered was that for non-sport riders, once they get past a certain learning curve, their likelihood of crashing is greatly reduced. My personal experience seems to back that; I crashed once early on after starting to ride again, and nothing since then. But then our mayor recently went down, suffering a broken collar bone and concussion that is still affecting her vision (she had to get new lenses), even with a helmet.... her first fall in 25 years of riding.

Yeah, I prefer the look of a non-helmeted rider to a helmeted one, and that's kind of a draw when a good chunk of the appeal of cycling has to do with style (yeah, admit it). If others don't want to wear a helmet, they're adults; they can make their choices. It's none of my business. But I personally value my noggin enough to protect it.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 07-03-12, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Doohickie;14435965...
Yeah, I prefer the look of a non-helmeted rider to a helmeted one, and that's kind of a draw when a good chunk of the appeal of cycling has to do with style (yeah, admit it). If others don't want to wear a helmet, they're adults; they can make their choices. It's none of my business. But I personally value my noggin enough to protect it.
I guess that's what it comes down to, in my opinion anyways. I'm fine with folks who believe a helmet has value, so long as they don't try to force the whole population to wear one.
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Old 07-03-12, 11:38 AM
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Honestly, I think safety should come first... not wearing a helmet because of style is reckless to me..

I agree with ^Doohickie in that your noggin is valuable enough to protect it. I have friends that felt that they were "too cool" to wear a helmet, but recently found some pretty decent looking ones that are disguised as hats. It's pretty cool actually. I was thinking of buying one for myself. Found it here - https://luckychic.com/TS/Protected/Ve...9&&GroupId=725

I thought it was a cool concept. Hopefully ideas like these will encourage more people to wear helmets.
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Old 07-03-12, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Janine121
Honestly, I think safety should come first... not wearing a helmet because of style is reckless to me..
Over 10 times as many people per year die in accidents on stairs as on bicycles, if safety comes first, shouldn't we mandate helmet use when walking on stairs? We could save far more lives by requiring helmet use in motor vehicles than requiring it on bicycles - If you feel compelled to place safety first and wish to wear a helmet while riding a bike, or climbing stairs, or washing the dishes, I fully support your right to do so, but please, do not require me to wear safety gear so that you feel better about it.
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Old 07-03-12, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Doohickie
I wonder whether the low-speed cycling transport crowd, which is largely helmetless, skews the data, and that a large proportion of helmet wearers engage in sport cycling, to include high speed road riding and road racing, and also MTBers pushing themselves on challenging courses. Of course they crash more; they are pushing the limits, which is why they are wearing their helmets to begin with..
+1 on this. This happens in the running world as well, the most competitive runners tend to have injuries. That's because they're on the edge of training as much as they can, and sometimes they push themselves over the edge. I think competitive cyclists (whether they race or not) are on that edge. Casual riders (me, for instance) aren't intentionally trying to push their limits that close.
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Old 07-03-12, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gna
Whoz dat?
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Old 07-03-12, 12:04 PM
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Helmut Kohl
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Old 07-03-12, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Janine121
Honestly, I think safety should come first... not wearing a helmet because of style is reckless to me..

I agree with ^Doohickie in that your noggin is valuable enough to protect it. I have friends that felt that they were "too cool" to wear a helmet, but recently found some pretty decent looking ones that are disguised as hats. It's pretty cool actually. I was thinking of buying one for myself. Found it here - https://luckychic.com/TS/Protected/Ve...9&&GroupId=725

I thought it was a cool concept. Hopefully ideas like these will encourage more people to wear helmets.
Well, according to this very thorugh paper, helmets are of practically no use except to children and elderly:

https://www.cycle-helmets.com/elvik.pdf

Makes sense, once you consider what may typically cause severe brain damage. Anyway, this has been discussed ad nauseam in the helmet thread.
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Old 07-03-12, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hagen2456
Helmut Kohl
Tanks!
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Old 07-03-12, 01:43 PM
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The statistics can be skewed any way you want, depending on your bias. Just wear one if you want, don't if you don't want to. End of story.
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Old 07-03-12, 02:34 PM
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Old 07-03-12, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lostarchitect
The statistics can be skewed any way you want, depending on your bias. Just wear one if you want, don't if you don't want to. End of story.
I agree about wearing or not. I do not agree about the Elvik paper having a bias, though. If you can find any, please let us know.
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Old 07-03-12, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Doohickie
Okay, okay, having watched the talk... I'm just not sold. I understand the tradeoff on a population-wide basis of urging/legislating helmet use versus scaring people off bikes. On a personal level, though, I wouldn't ride without one.

One statement he made, though, intrigues me. I think he said that helmet wearers are 50% more likely to crash. I wonder whether the low-speed cycling transport crowd, which is largely helmetless, skews the data, and that a large proportion of helmet wearers engage in sport cycling, to include high speed road riding and road racing, and also MTBers pushing themselves on challenging courses. Of course they crash more; they are pushing the limits, which is why they are wearing their helmets to begin with.

One thing I've considered was that for non-sport riders, once they get past a certain learning curve, their likelihood of crashing is greatly reduced. My personal experience seems to back that; I crashed once early on after starting to ride again, and nothing since then. But then our mayor recently went down, suffering a broken collar bone and concussion that is still affecting her vision (she had to get new lenses), even with a helmet.... her first fall in 25 years of riding.

Yeah, I prefer the look of a non-helmeted rider to a helmeted one, and that's kind of a draw when a good chunk of the appeal of cycling has to do with style (yeah, admit it). If others don't want to wear a helmet, they're adults; they can make their choices. It's none of my business. But I personally value my noggin enough to protect it.
I was with you all the way to the last sentence, where you insult everyone who chooses not to wear a helmet. Why is it that helmet wearers have to be so unpleasant about it?
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Old 07-04-12, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lostarchitect
The statistics can be skewed any way you want, depending on your bias. Just wear one if you want, don't if you don't want to. End of story.
Statistics themselves are actually quite reliable (usually); it's usually the conclusions we draw from them that tend to be fallacious (usually due to the good ol' fashioned correlation=causation fallacy).
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Old 07-04-12, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Six jours
I was with you all the way to the last sentence, where you insult everyone who chooses not to wear a helmet. Why is it that helmet wearers have to be so unpleasant about it?
Ditto.
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Old 07-04-12, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Six jours
I was with you all the way to the last sentence, where you insult everyone who chooses not to wear a helmet. Why is it that helmet wearers have to be so unpleasant about it?
I agree. If adults can decide for themselves, and it's none of your business, you should respect anothers thoughts that may differ from yours.
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Old 07-04-12, 08:50 AM
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For some reason that Parthian shot is always so hard to resist...
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Old 07-04-12, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Six jours
I was with you all the way to the last sentence, where you insult everyone who chooses not to wear a helmet. Why is it that helmet wearers have to be so unpleasant about it?
Originally Posted by sudo bike
Ditto.
Originally Posted by closetbiker
I agree. If adults can decide for themselves, and it's none of your business, you should respect anothers thoughts that may differ from yours.
What's unpleasant about "But I personally value my noggin enough to protect it."? I wasn't trying to be unpleasant, it's just my personal statement, the way I view things personally. I wasn't judging anyone else.

I really like the thought of going helmetless, and I can fully see why people do it. My personal experience just tips the scale away from that choice though. Maybe if I never had a header, I'd be helmetless today, but knowing that I've gone down before and have some likelihood of going down again, I just like having the helmet on. If someone took offense at that, it certainly wasn't intended.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 07-04-12, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Doohickie
What's unpleasant about "But I personally value my noggin enough to protect it."? ...
the short answer is, because it comes off as judgemental.

I can appreciate you have your view, and I know you don't mean it that way but that's how it comes off. To me anyway.

If wearing or not wearing a helmet isn't anyones business but their own, why make the comment? It seems by making one, you're judging.

Last edited by closetbiker; 07-04-12 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 07-04-12, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Doohickie
What's unpleasant about "But I personally value my noggin enough to protect it."?
You imply that the helmetless do NOT value their noggin (enough to protect it). "I personally" is mostly used that way - to stress the contrast between yourself and others.
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