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The helmet thread

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The helmet thread

Old 07-16-12, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
it could be, or it could be something else like, risk compensation, or that helmets have a far more limited effect on injury than thought from a few, previous, very flawed studies (that get far too much attention and credit). The fact is, there are studies, and there is the real world, and positive results of helmet use in the real world is far from clear, cyclists shouldn't be considered being an "airhead" for not wearing one.



It would seem, on an individual level helmets may provide some protection, but that protection hasn't been born out on an aggregate level. Again, there could be many reasons why (perhaps the level of injury protection helmets provide is too low to register on an aggregate level? perhaps on an aggregate level, people do things they never would have before if not for the helmet?) but I'm sure we can agree, helmets don't prevent collisions or falls and avoiding these are far more important than wearing a helmet.



That is one of main purposes of this thread, to provide information about what helmets can and can't do. In a nut shell, they provide protection within a specific section of the helmet, in a simple fall with little to no forward movement. To say helmets to perform beyond this is simple conjecture, to expect them to, is folly.
Yes, there are many competing ideas out there. What I'm getting at is: are there specific studies that try to control for and isolate out the different issues? Even looking at instances where MHLs have been implemented, how does one isolate the effects of helmet safety, risk compensation, vehicle behavior, and decreased ridership? I guess what I'm really asking is whether such controlled studies, or something close, actually exist and to what extent.
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Old 07-16-12, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
... Since Australia has implemented MHL, how many other nations/localities have?
Not nearly as many that hasn't.

BC followed Australia's example in '96 and 3 Maritime province's followed soon thereafter. Not too many other examples (outside of a few cities) after these.

Both Spain and Sweden passed laws, but they're full of holes and exemptions, so do they count?
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Old 07-16-12, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Risk compensation has been noted as not valid or rather not in any way relative in otherwise anti-helmet studies. See above.
so says the people who wouldn't ride a bike without wearing helmets... sheesh... whatevs...
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Old 07-16-12, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by spunkyj
Yes, there are many competing ideas out there. What I'm getting at is: are there specific studies that try to control for and isolate out the different issues? Even looking at instances where MHLs have been implemented, how does one isolate the effects of helmet safety, risk compensation, vehicle behavior, and decreased ridership? I guess what I'm really asking is whether such controlled studies, or something close, actually exist and to what extent.
there are studies that show just about anything you want to look for, but what's important is, are the results of these studies and surveys clear and definitive? The answer is no. The issue of protection provided by helmets is about as clear as mud.
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Old 07-16-12, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
so says the people who wouldn't ride a bike without wearing helmets... sheesh... whatevs...

No, so says Elvik, who is cited on a notorious helmet-skeptic site...:


https://www.cycle-helmets.com/elvik.pdf


"Once helmeted, cyclists might feel better protected and adopt more risky riding behaviour. While this cannot be ruled out, there is no direct evidence for it and performing a convincing study of such behavioural adaptation would be very difficult. The issue remains unresolved."
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Old 07-16-12, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
Not nearly as many that hasn't.

BC followed Australia's example in '96 and 3 Maritime province's followed soon thereafter. Not too many other examples (outside of a few cities) after these.

Both Spain and Sweden passed laws, but they're full of holes and exemptions, so do they count?
Spain and Sweden? Not really -- how many Spanish and Swedish subscribers to BF are there...?
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Old 07-16-12, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
You have no facts for what you said. There is no way for you to prove that wearing a helmet in that supposedly accident you had would have killed you or had a worst outcome, that's pure nonsense, in fact the only way you could have possibly come to that knowledge would to have several high speed cameras placed strategically around the point of impact and then take the film and have a crash engineer study it to determine if you could have been better off with or without the helmet. And more then likely you probably wouldn't even had the bump had you been wearing a helmet, and that's why I don't believe your boorish story.
LOL. You're really being remarkably obtuse, aren't you? Let me explain.

After my accident I did indeed reflect upon the fact that had I been wearing a helmet I might assumed that it had saved me from serious head injury, but that clearly, in the light of my head being largely unscathed, that would have been a mistaken assumption. What followed - the speculation that had I been wearing a helmet the outcome would have been worse - was a parody of the many, many "my helmet saved my life" stories that we get in this thread. Clearly, I cannot know what the outcome would have been had I been helmeted, just as they cannot know what their outcomes would have been had they been helmetless.

Do try to keep up, or I'll disgust you by posting a picture of my shoulder.
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Old 07-16-12, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
LOL. You're really being remarkably obtuse, aren't you? Let me explain.

After my accident I did indeed reflect upon the fact that had I been wearing a helmet I might assumed that it had saved me from serious head injury, but that clearly, in the light of my head being largely unscathed, that would have been a mistaken assumption. What followed - the speculation that had I been wearing a helmet the outcome would have been worse - was a parody of the many, many "my helmet saved my life" stories that we get in this thread. Clearly, I cannot know what the outcome would have been had I been helmeted, just as they cannot know what their outcomes would have been had they been helmetless.

Do try to keep up, or I'll disgust you by posting a picture of my shoulder.
A pic of your shoulder does NOT PROVE riding a bicycle without a helmet saved your head, it also won't prove your shoulder was even in a bicycle accident you could have gotten that from cutting a tree down in your front yard and fell against the tree or some such thing.

And you call me slow witted? Your the one who thinks we all here are slow witted so you can post this crap and assume we'll all believe your nonsense!! That may work with some of the other clowns here, but not with me pal.
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Old 07-16-12, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
A pic of your shoulder does NOT PROVE riding a bicycle without a helmet saved your head, it also won't prove your shoulder was even in a bicycle accident you could have gotten that from cutting a tree down in your front yard and fell against the tree or some such thing.

And you call me slow witted? Your the one who thinks we all here are slow witted so you can post this crap and assume we'll all believe your nonsense!! That may work with some of the other clowns here, but not with me pal.
Irony overload! Hilarious!
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Old 07-16-12, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Irony overload! Hilarious!
It is extraordinary, isn't it? Or have I suddenly lost the power of self-expression? Can he seriously not have understood?

Helmets definitely impede cognition. I've always suspected it.
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Old 07-16-12, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
And you call me slow witted?
No, he's just pointing it out. Not that it's exactly necessary, of course.
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Old 07-16-12, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
I had a guy yell "HELMET" at me on the MUP yesterday. I finally used the response I've been wanting to use for a while. I just yelled "KNEE PADS!" back at him.
Sir, you have inspired me. On the ride today, I passed a fellow cyclist and said "good day" to him. I stopped for a chocolate milk, then I later caught up to him. Surprisingly, since I was off to see the doctor today and took some side streets when I saw him. I said "Hello again!". After a block, he took a left and said, "Get a helmet". I immediately thought of your post and yelled back, "Get some knee pads!".
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Old 07-16-12, 09:47 PM
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Yeah, I don't know. Think I'll stick with "Go **** yourself!"
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Old 07-16-12, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
A pic of your shoulder does NOT PROVE riding a bicycle without a helmet saved your head, it also won't prove your shoulder was even in a bicycle accident you could have gotten that from cutting a tree down in your front yard and fell against the tree or some such thing.

And you call me slow witted? Your the one who thinks we all here are slow witted so you can post this crap and assume we'll all believe your nonsense!! That may work with some of the other clowns here, but not with me pal.
Bad Faith much?
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Old 07-17-12, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
It is extraordinary, isn't it? Or have I suddenly lost the power of self-expression? Can he seriously not have understood?

Helmets definitely impede cognition. I've always suspected it.
Your complaints about it are ironic (too). He's using the standard arguments of the anti-helmet crowd which "prove" that helmets are dangerous! And you are complaining about it. It's pretty funny.
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Old 07-17-12, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by hagen2456
PLEASE read https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post14465784. I'm pretty sure the numbers are correct.

A link to your own post without references and saying "I'm pretty sure the numbers are correct" doesn't really do anything!
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Old 07-17-12, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
Why is it "bizarre"?

There are two probabilities to consider:

1. The probability that a helmet will perform some sort of protective function in a particular type of crash
2. The probability of experiencing that particular type of crash.

The article suggests that slower-moving, facilities-riding commuters have lower values for 2 and hence have less need for 1.
What's bizarre is the implication that people shouldn't ride "fragile" racing bikes fast.

Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
I think it's quite obvious that riding heavy bicycles slowly ought to be made mandatory Anyone travelling above 20 km/h should have their children taken away from them and there should be threads on cycling forums calling them morons. It's only common sense isnt it?
Here, you say people shouldn't (yes, you are trying to make some sort of joke). We still have no idea whether these riders would fair better or worse with helmets (the article certainly doesn't say anything about that). The only thing the article could be recommending is that people not ride "fragile" racing bikes fast.

Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
I don't see where you get the bias against roadies thing from it. It's just pointing out that it's a mistake to lump together riskier activities on a bike with less-risky ones.
It's interesting that you don't see the bias. It portrays "roadies" as reckless (the bikes are not particularly "fragile").

Note, too, that a standard argument of the anti-helmet crowd is that all cycling is low risk and riders in the Netherlands are all exactly like the riders in the US.

All of the helmeted cyclists are racing around, head down, feet firmly clamped to the pedals on fragile lightweight skinny tired bicycles — except for the one on a muddy knobbly tired mountainbike. Most of the helmet photos were taken at the weekend.
Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
You should think a bit before you reject information that doesn't automatically confirm your predjudices.
No, silly, you should look critically at any information regardless of the position it supports. You should not accept information merely because it confirms your position.

What's deeply funny about this thread is that the many of anti-helmet crowd are quite bad at looking at information supporting their side critically.And you don't really know what my position is.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-17-12 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 07-17-12, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Your complaints about it are ironic (too). He's using the standard arguments of the anti-helmet crowd which "prove" that helmets are dangerous! And you are complaining about it. It's pretty funny.
Actually, he's complaining about me doing that. But no matter.

I had an extraordinary experience today. The police officer who attended my crash telephoned me to ask how I was, arrange a time to come and take a formal statement, and - here's the extraordinary bit - ask me if I thought they should prosecute the driver. Quite bizarre, given that it is entirely a decision for the police, not the victim, as to whether they should seek a prosecution.
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Old 07-17-12, 08:54 AM
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BTW After at least 4 threads and 119 pages on this one, the anti helmet clik has NOT conviced me to stop wearing a helmet!!!!!
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Old 07-17-12, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
BTW After at least 4 threads and 119 pages on this one, the anti helmet clik has NOT conviced me to stop wearing a helmet!!!!!
Bless your heart, nobody is trying to persuade anybody not to wear a helmet. We are trying to persuade people like you to stop trying to persuade us to wear one...
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Old 07-17-12, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
Actually, he's complaining about me doing that. But no matter.
Crap! Yes, I got it backwards! Yes, rekmeyata is the ironic one!
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Old 07-17-12, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
Bless your heart, nobody is trying to persuade anybody not to wear a helmet. We are trying to persuade people like you to stop trying to persuade us to wear one...
Hell, I'd call this whole damn thread a success if rydabent just quit being a total troll.
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Old 07-17-12, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by skye
Hell, I'd call this whole damn thread a success if rydabent just quit being a total troll.
Not going to happen. He is what he is.
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Old 07-17-12, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
... - here's the extraordinary bit - ask me if I thought they should prosecute the driver. Quite bizarre, given that it is entirely a decision for the police, not the victim, as to whether they should seek a prosecution.
In police speak, they are saying "We have decided we are willing to prosecute as long as you are willing to show up and testify. If you are not willing to show up or are not interested in the prosecution, we will not bother trying."
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Old 07-17-12, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
BTW After at least 4 threads and 119 pages on this one, the anti helmet clik has NOT conviced me to stop wearing a helmet!!!!!
Wait a minute. We thought you were anti-helmet, and now it turns out you wear a helmet?
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