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The helmet thread

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The helmet thread

Old 07-20-12, 03:29 PM
  #3001  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
Also, the new (EPS) helmets are easier, faster, and cheaper to make.

Throw in frequent replacement (needed or not) and MHLs, now we're talking profit! Profit, at societies expense.
Tut-tut: if there's an MHL in place, then society has made the decision that, regardless of research that might state otherwise, mandatory helmet usage is less cost than not.
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Old 07-20-12, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Tut-tut: if there's an MHL in place, then society has made the decision that, regardless of research that might state otherwise, mandatory helmet usage is less cost than not.
That's silly. Societies don't make decisions. Even if they did, the notion that they were based on some approximation of cost/benefit analysis, as opposed to propaganda, prejudice, and vested interest, would be ridiculous.
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Old 07-20-12, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
So much fail in one post:

Regarding the "fail to crush" failure criteria, what they actually say is, "We were looking to see if the harder foam in more expensive helmets might fail to crush enough in less-than-catastropic impacts, possibly contributing to concussion risk. In fact, that did not happen."

Cracking is not evidence by itself that a foam liner did not crush -- some fail after or during crushing action.

Helmets are not designed to reduce concussions -- I wouldn't expect a helmet, one that worked or one that didn't, to mitigate concussion.
Let me see if I can break this down into bite-sized pieces for you:

1.Fail to crush = increased concussion risk. This is the statement that the BHSI made.

I added two more steps, reflecting the anecdotal data so often posted on this thread:

2.A helmet that has cracked has failed to crush.

3.Therefore a cracked helmet is one that has failed to reduce concussion risk.

My comment was not regarding the outcome of the test, you moron. It was regarding the failure criteria.

Really, nobody will think worse of you if you move your lips while reading.
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Old 07-20-12, 06:12 PM
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Never noticed how fast I was going was actually fast until I got a speedo for my bike, time for a helmet!!!
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Old 07-20-12, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotiascotia
Never noticed how fast I was going was actually fast until I got a speedo for my bike, time for a helmet!!!
Maybe you should get a hat like this and wire it to your speedometer to warn you, or a speed governor. Would be just as useful.

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Old 07-20-12, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by skye
Let me see if I can break this down into bite-sized pieces for you:

1.Fail to crush = increased concussion risk. This is the statement that the BHSI made.

I added two more steps, reflecting the anecdotal data so often posted on this thread:

2.A helmet that has cracked has failed to crush.

3.Therefore a cracked helmet is one that has failed to reduce concussion risk.
Serious logic fail.

It's not necessarily binary. That is, crushing and cracking could both be occurring.

Cracking might not be good but that doesn't that it's worse than no helmet.

Also, the fact that the helmet is there to (possibly) crack in some situations means it's there to (possibly) crush in others.

Originally Posted by skye
My comment was not regarding the outcome of the test, you moron. It was regarding the failure criteria.

Really, nobody will think worse of you if you move your lips while reading.
Good job on the name calling!

You are the person who incorrectly said that closetbiker didn't engage in name calling!

It appears you really have no idea what name calling is.

Hilarious! Ironic!

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-20-12 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 07-22-12, 08:59 AM
  #3007  
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Originally Posted by skye
Let me see if I can break this down into bite-sized pieces for you:

1.Fail to crush = increased concussion risk. This is the statement that the BHSI made.

I added two more steps, reflecting the anecdotal data so often posted on this thread:

2.A helmet that has cracked has failed to crush.

3.Therefore a cracked helmet is one that has failed to reduce concussion risk.

My comment was not regarding the outcome of the test, you moron. It was regarding the failure criteria.

Really, nobody will think worse of you if you move your lips while reading.
1. I quoted the BHSI statement. It doesn't say what you say it says. If you got a more succinct quote from that citation you made, quote it direct.

2. A helmet that has cracked may not have failed to crush -- it may have crushed first and then cracked.

3. Helmets are not designed to reduce concussion risk. The test you cited was actually to see if high-end and low end helmets offered the same kind of protection to helmet standards. They do.

If you want to cherry-pick quotes out of context to studies and papers in order to support your side of the debate, feel free to do so, just don't get sore when the pro-helmeteers engage in the same kind of misrepresentation. I'd like to think that you are unique among those who argue the bare-head gospel, but sadly, you're not.
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Old 07-22-12, 06:49 PM
  #3008  
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Someone needs to read alright.

https://www.smf.org/docs/articles/csa


https://brainsafety.com/your-brain-and-concussions.html

https://www.lawyeronabike.com/article_helmet.html

Last edited by rekmeyata; 07-22-12 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 07-22-12, 07:13 PM
  #3009  
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No facts there, only opinions. And the brainsafety page is laughably out of date.
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Old 07-22-12, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by skye
No facts there, only opinions. And the brainsafety page is laughably out of date.
They were all based on facts, your just about follyness which is what the lawyer said.
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Old 07-22-12, 09:36 PM
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A car hit me over the weekend. My helmet is crushed. Two paramedics and an emergency room doctor told me that my helmet saved my life.

These are facts, deal with them however you like. But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
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Old 07-22-12, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
A car hit me over the weekend. My helmet is crushed. Two paramedics and an emergency room doctor told me that my helmet saved my life.

These are facts, deal with them however you like. But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
No one is claiming that a helmet cannot save your life. Only that it isn't very likely to, especially in a car vs. bike scenario.

Did you ask the doctor and medics how much training they had in ascertaining the effectiveness of bicycle helmets? If they're like almost all doctors and medics, they haven't had any at all. As I've noted more than once, in my paramedic days I told several people they had had their lives saved by their helmets, because it's kind of a cool thing to say and gives everyone a little shiver. Never mind that I had no training in the area of helmet effectiveness and had absolutely no idea whether the helmets had done anything helpful at all.

I just wonder if any of those people ended up on the internet, breathlessly telling about the paramedic who claimed their helmets saved their lives...
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Old 07-22-12, 10:19 PM
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I'm not a doctor, I couldn't handle all the engineering classes about bicycle helmet impact stress relative to injury correlations. tough stuff. that and the insides of people are icky. but an asploded helmet does indicate the helmet did what it was supposed to and force was dissipated. glad you're still with us but these are still your opinions, not facts.
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Old 07-22-12, 10:35 PM
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I've never worn a helmet, but only because I did most of my riding before helmets were commonplace.

Almost all my bike wrecks have been loss of balance or loss of traction. None have ever involved another moving vehicle. (I have plowed into a number of parked cars, mostly when I was between eight and nine years old. Mostly) The point is that I feel like I am much more likely to fall down and smack my noggin on the ground than be hit by someone else.

I'm going to buy a helmet.
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Old 07-22-12, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
A car hit me over the weekend. My helmet is crushed. Two paramedics and an emergency room doctor told me that my helmet saved my life.

These are facts, deal with them however you like. But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
I'm glad you are OK.

Doctors and paramedics regularly tell people that their helmets saved their life. It may be true in your case, it may not. It certainly is not true in most cases, because the incidence of severe head injury to cyclists does not seem to have varied much with increased helmet use. In other words, in places where helmets are worn, cyclists don't seem to be any safer than in places where they aren't. And as six jours said, for the most part medical staff have no idea whether helmets work, they just assume they do.

I too was hit by a car lately. My head made contact with the road. I have no doubt that the impact would have damaged my helmet, had I been wearing one. I'm fine. Like I said, I'm glad you are too.
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Old 07-22-12, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Six jours
No one is claiming that a helmet cannot save your life. Only that it isn't very likely to, especially in a car vs. bike scenario.

Did you ask the doctor and medics how much training they had in ascertaining the effectiveness of bicycle helmets? If they're like almost all doctors and medics, they haven't had any at all. As I've noted more than once, in my paramedic days I told several people they had had their lives saved by their helmets, because it's kind of a cool thing to say and gives everyone a little shiver. Never mind that I had no training in the area of helmet effectiveness and had absolutely no idea whether the helmets had done anything helpful at all.

I just wonder if any of those people ended up on the internet, breathlessly telling about the paramedic who claimed their helmets saved their lives...
Actually that's precisely what was being claimed in the other thread, that helmets were useless. They clearly are not.

Large chunks of my helmet are missing. Large chunks of what would have been my head, hair, scalp, skull, and brains, had it not been covered in a helmet. I didn't get the docs helmet testing credentials, but he did make a comment that "it's always so much worse when they aren't wearing helmets" to a nurse. I'll take his word, my visual inspection of the helmets state post-crash, and how my head currently feels over anti-helmet zealotry, thanks.
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Old 07-23-12, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
A car hit me over the weekend. My helmet is crushed. Two paramedics and an emergency room doctor told me that my helmet saved my life.

These are facts, deal with them however you like
I find it completely believable that a doctor and EMT thinks helmets have the ability to save lives and told you so.

Glad you're OK either way, though.
But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
... on a bike, walking down the street, in a car, riding horseback.
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Old 07-23-12, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
You're not the boss of me! I'm going to pretend that very thing right now.
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Old 07-23-12, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
A car hit me over the weekend. My helmet is crushed. Two paramedics and an emergency room doctor told me that my helmet saved my life.

These are facts, deal with them however you like. But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
Have you ever considered that helmets crush at a, sub-lethal level? That once EPS bottoms out, it cannot provide any more help? That perhaps, the helmet broke because it was too fragile for the circumstance?

Last edited by closetbiker; 07-23-12 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 07-23-12, 08:11 AM
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...in the meanwhile, I stumbled upon this story in which 79 year old Stephen R. Covey, author of the top-selling motivational book "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People," died on Monday at an Idaho hospital from injuries he suffered in a bicycle accident.

To display the whacked-out logic of Helmeteers, his publicist was quoted to say,

"He just lost control on his bike and crashed," Lund said. "He was wearing a helmet, which is good news."

To not be able to see a helmet hasn't helped, even when someone dies, is pretty whacked.
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Old 07-23-12, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
A car hit me over the weekend. My helmet is crushed. Two paramedics and an emergency room doctor told me that my helmet saved my life.

These are facts, deal with them however you like. But don't ever pretend that a helmet cannot save your life.
Sorry, the helmet did nothing for you, the paramedics and doctors are all idiots, statistics don't mean anything either; just ask the others here on this forum that disagree with helmets, they know more then the doctors do, statistics, or major university studies.

I for one am glad the helmet saved your brain cell, the others probably wished you died so they could say..."see, we told you so"!
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Old 07-23-12, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Sorry, the helmet did nothing for you, the paramedics and doctors are all idiots, statistics don't mean anything either; just ask the others here on this forum that disagree with helmets, they know more then the doctors do, statistics, or major university studies.

I for one am glad the helmet saved your brain cell, the others probably wished you died so they could say..."see, we told you so"!
Yeah. Another one who doesn't know the difference between anecdotal evidence and statistics.

But you're right. The doctors don't know **** about whether that helmet saved him.

As for this post https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post14515220, I'd say that the more ventilation, the less safe, as all those ventilation holes makes a helmet more prone to catch on the road surface or whatever you hit with it. The helmet that will do most for a fast rider is one that closely resembles a motorcycle helmet.
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Old 07-23-12, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
...in the meanwhile, I stumbled upon this story in which 79 year old Stephen R. Covey, author of the top-selling motivational book "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People," died on Monday at an Idaho hospital from injuries he suffered in a bicycle accident.

To display the whacked-out logic of Helmeteers, his publicist was quoted to say,

"He just lost control on his bike and crashed," Lund said. "He was wearing a helmet, which is good news."

To not be able to see a helmet hasn't helped, even when someone dies, is pretty whacked.
Never fails to amuse, how the bare-head brigade will leave out critical info when citing something their way:

"...At the time, his publicist, Debra Lund, said doctors had not found any signs of long-term damage to his head...."

Note: "At the time," i.e. before he died.

Typical. Sad.
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Old 07-23-12, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Never fails to amuse, how the bare-head brigade will leave out critical info when citing something their way:

"...At the time, his publicist, Debra Lund, said doctors had not found any signs of long-term damage to his head...."

Note: "At the time," i.e. before he died.

Typical. Sad.
still trying to figure out how it was "good news" that he was wearing a helmet...
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Old 07-23-12, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
still trying to figure out how it was "good news" that he was wearing a helmet...
Still trying to figure out why you called his publicist on what she said regarding his helmet use before he was even dead...
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