Ya think? Depends on how you want to define "a REAL discussion" or which posters are included in this "discussion group" you describe as "we."

We, the 3 people that posted the last 20 posts, Yea the hard core has "stayed" out of it so far, so I'm just waiting to get bent over from "something" that I said... I am surprised you haven't actually commented about some of the other things I have said... :p

Never-mind, not as funny as I thought it was going to be... :beer:

Ok, so you claim that some studies are biased because of funding. Not unreasonable.

Tell me, which studies, in your opinion, were biased because of the funding. Please, be specific. If you are going to libel the people who researched and wrote these studies, I certainly hope you have more to back you up than "my experience." Which is how you seem to explain everything else.

So, which studies are biased?

Which aren't?

I've already read those studies (in most cases, the actual studies, not the abstracts). Telling me to read them again is silly.

So, tell me, how does the foam stiffness -- which you clearly regard as the primary factor in how well a helmet protects you against injury -- influence neuronal shear stress, which is, as I'm sure you know, the major cause of traumatic brain injury? You seem to be *very* uninformed as to the causes of TBI.

So, try again, let's see if you can get things right this time.

Do you know the answer, in which case, you are phrasing this question like a complete asshat, or are you asking because you don't know and want to expand your knowledge base, in which case you're phrasing the question like a complete asshat?

Comparing what happens to the average dutch bicyclist has no real bearing to what happens to the average N. American bicyclist, it's like comparing accident rates while riding bicycles on a beach path versus riding bicycles downtown... Not really a fair comparison in my mind...

Well that is the point, the conditions for cyclists are different in every country, apparently those conditions are far more important for safety than helmet usage.

It is a real hoot and just plain stupid to say real world accidents are of less importance than "studies"!!!

Yep. Helmets are way down the list, regarding bike safety. Even the LAB acknowledges that.

Real world accidents should certainly not be dismissed, but biased analysis of such by the uninformed, ignorant, and prejudiced should certainly be taken with not just a grain, but a truckload of salt.

OK, And it's true. How you ride, where you ride, you skill level, is way more important than a helmet for sure. The helmet is just the last line of defence in a crash, often not even needed, sometimes not enough, but most times it can help... IMO from my experience it's better to have and not need than not have and need, which I think has way more weight to me than any studies conclusion, especially one that says that a helmet causes more harm than good... :twitchy:

You mean ... people wear helmets more often in places where cycling is more dangerous??

Shocking, simply shocking.

+10

Dude, they've been at this way, way longer than you, and will be at it long after you have moved on to more usful pursuits.

Wear your new helmet in good health.

Precisely. How often is the assumption that "I wasn't injured because I was wearing a helmet" or "if I'd been wearing a helmet, I wouldn't have been injured". Sure, in some cases a helmet will provide a benefit, but people don't bother to actually figure out whether or not this was the case. They're happy enough to blindly assume that a helmet saved their life.

I suppose I would rather blindly assume that a helmet saved my life than to have my widow wondering if a helmet might have saved my life.

I am not qualified to interpret anyone's data regarding the efficacy of wearing a helmet, so in the absence of such knowledge, I will happily err on the side of caution. Ultimately, however, our heads are our own, and only we can decide for ourselves what level of protection we desire, or if it is even beneficial at all.

Well, beezaur certainly made a decent case and look at the reception he got here...

...and there are plenty in this thread who are happy enough to blindly assume that a helmet didn't save a life or provide exactly the protection that someone claims it did.

People that play with numbers and percentages often seem to forget what they are betting, they aren't betting $1, $5, or even $100... on the roll of the dice. If you crash, it could be anything from nothing, a scrape, a bump on the head, a weeks worth of memory gone, a year of not being able to work, never being normal again, a paraplegic, or death... Not to say the helmet can save you from all these things but really, to say it doesn't help, well my simple little brain just can't wrap itself around that so called "fact" no matter how many smart people say it to me. The little self preservation voice in the back of my head keeps saying "don't believe it" So I choose not to... really, it's as simple as that. ;)

EDIT; Having said that, I do believe that I have learned a few things that are better to do than just relying on a helmet...

1) Don't rely on the helmet, keep it as the last defence
2) Ride defensively
3) Ride where it's less chance of an unpleasant interaction with vehicles
4) Improving riding skill is more helpful
5) fallow smart riding practices like taking the lane when needed, things like that
6) I'm sure there's more things that would help more, but for now I'm just going to finish my beer...

None of what you said applies to bicycle riding uniquely. You could make the exact same argument for anything from walking, to driving. If head injury rates are any judge, you'd probably get more use out of a crash helmet in a car rather than on a bike (efficacy aside). Remember: you aren't betting a couple bucks; you're betting your life on the roll of the dice.

Yes, that's why we have airbags, anti-lock brakes, vehicle dynamic controls... And yes I do believe it would be safer in a car with a helmet, & 5 point seat belts, isn't that why race car-drivers use them? but so far "it" (my survival mechanism) hasn't suggested a helmet for normal driving, But, I must admit I have, worn a helmet in my car..., But they MADE me do it, :p Honest, otherwise I couldn't race... :D
It's strange, but my little voice that is concerned with my safety/survival mechanism, never said...

1; wear a helmet while walking, it just says, watch where you are going.
2; wear a helmet while showering, it just says, be careful, it slippery.
3; wear a helmet when going up ladders, it just says, 3 point contact at all times.
5; But it does, also say's stuff like, don't feed the bears, don't open the tigers cage, and definitely, don't go in there... ;)

So it comes down to your gut. Well, OK I guess, but that seems really arbitrary to me. My gut tells me hopping on a bicycle and heading down to the grocery store is remarkably safe. Children do it all the time. If you think bikes are dangerous enough for a survival instinct to take over, go for it, I guess.

Dude's crashed ten times... He probably ought to be wearing a helmet...

Fixed that for you.

Very few unhelmeted cyclists suffer serious head or brain injury. Yet almost everyone who posts in this thread in favour of helmets appears to have escaped death or serious brain injury because they were wearing a helmet. It must follow either that the helmeted experience massively higher accident rates than the unhelmeted (unlikely, imo) or that in most cases, helmets were irrelevant to the outcome and they would not have been seriously injured had they not been wearing them.

My own real-world experience suggests the latter. On two occasions in my very long cycling life I have crashed in such a way as to hit my head, once on the road and once putting a severe dent in the panel of a panel truck. On neither occasion was I wearing a helmet, on neither occasion was I seriously hurt.

If you have an accident in which you bump your helmeted head, it is natural to assume that the helmet has saved you. That may not be the case, however, and the statistics suggest that it usually isn't.