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The helmet thread

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The helmet thread

Old 06-06-14, 10:14 AM
  #7801  
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Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
...the body is evolved to withstand accidents associated with running around on a Savannah, say at speeds of up to 20something km/h...
Primitive man lived in an organic world with plenty of ways to get hurt for sure. We live in an artificial world with concrete curbs, steel bumpers, and an incredible concentration of fast-moving, heavy objects swirling all around us. Added to that we are balancing (precariously for some) on two wheels over variable surfaces and all but recumbent riders and very casual riders find their heads further from the ground than when they are on foot.

So jogging or running across the Savannah and taking a fall is pretty benign. Our big round heads were designed for thinking, not for taking much of a physical beating. Woodpeckers (bird) heads are designed for taking a beating for instance. And they don't need to do much thinking.

Kinda apples and oranges. Just for the sake of argument (and staying in compliance with this silly thread) I don't see much of a connection.

If you are at all interested in woodpeckers skulls:

"The four major safety features of the woodpecker have been utilized in the design of new high impact products including crash helmets and flight data recorders."

More on how woodpeckers survive 1200g 20 times a second when 50g just once would just about kill a human.

Last edited by JoeyBike; 06-06-14 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 06-06-14, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I know. It defies all reason, just like most things bicycle related in New Orleans. Obviously it's the motorists who are shouldering all of the responsibility for not hitting cyclists who are "in their way" and patiently waiting for a gap to pass in the oncoming lane. I just don't have that kind of trust as a cyclist. [my bold]
Speaking more generally here, I tend to trust motorists - even while cycling in what is often considered to be a very unfriendly environment. Though I also do a trust-but-verify visual sweep when it seems prudent.

I watched your video waiting for a door to open then a sidewinder missile to be launched from the handlebars of your Supercorsa. Granted, I have an active imagination.

As I clearly have too much time on my hands today, I googled 22.63, your average speed. By incredible coincidence it happens to be the price, in pounds sterling, of an officially licensed Where's Wally Female Fancy dress costume. Rewatching your video with a closer eye, I spotted this, at 2263 Magazine Street:



Spooky or what?

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Woodpeckers (bird) heads are designed for taking a beating for instance. And they don't need to do much thinking.
Also staying in compliance with this silly thread:

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Old 06-06-14, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
What most bicycle helmet advocates happily ignore, is that a typical cycling accident usually won't result in anything but very minor injuries.
...
False. Most of us absolutely understand is that the vast majority of bicycle accidents involve little to no injuries. And bicycle accidents that involve a head-strike are even rarer.
Your condescending tone is exactly what the Bare Head Brigade is forever whining about, from people they meet on the street.
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Old 06-06-14, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 905
As I clearly have too much time on my hands today, I googled 22.63, your average speed. By incredible coincidence it happens to be the price, in pounds sterling, of an officially licensed Where's Wally Female Fancy dress costume. Rewatching your video with a closer eye, I spotted this, at 2263 Magazine Street:



Spooky or what?
Extremely clever actually. I gotta remember that "trick" of Googling random numbers as prices and see what comes up. Nice Photoshop work too. Is she really tall or jumping up and down hoping I would notice her? And now I must play 2-2-6-3 in the next Lotto.
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Old 06-06-14, 11:31 AM
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So jogging or running across the Savannah and taking a fall is pretty benign.
And so is cycling at running speed in our artificial world and taking a fall. Being run over by a car afterwards, etc, is another cup of tea, but I wouldn't count on a bicycle helmet to safe the day if that happens. And while our heads most certainly evolved to take a beating, they're indeed not very good at it, but then again, your typical bicycle accident won't result in much of a beating. And yes, the head is a bit higher over the surface, usually, but that's not going to make a huge difference.
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Old 06-06-14, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MMACH 5
False. Most of us absolutely understand is that the vast majority of bicycle accidents involve little to no injuries. And bicycle accidents that involve a head-strike are even rarer.
Yes, and the lot of you happily ignore that, judging from all the "A Helmet Saved My Life" stories, that describe accidents that most likely wouldn't have had a bad outcome regardless of whether the accidentee was donning a helmet or not.

Your condescending tone is exactly what the Bare Head Brigade is forever whining about, from people they meet on the street.
Perhaps, the difference is that I don't bother random people with my (admittedly somewhat weird) desire to argue about cycling helmets, I go (for example) to a specially quarantined thread normal people can avoid like the plague if they wish to do so. It's the difference between going to church, and bothering random bystanders on the street with your religious beliefs, really. So you can stop emulating butt-hurt now.

Last edited by CarinusMalmari; 06-06-14 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 06-06-14, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Is she really tall or jumping up and down hoping I would notice her?
I believe she's just jumped for joy after getting a call from nearby A Musing Bikes that her bike is ready for pickup.




CONFESSION: I've never been to New Orleans, so even though I've watched Tremé, my lack of knowledge of the city is bound to be exposed sooner or later. The closest I've been to The Big Easy is Hastings, whose claims to be twinned may lack a certain veracity.
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Old 06-06-14, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
And so is cycling at running speed in our artificial world and taking a fall. Being run over by a car afterwards, etc, is another cup of tea, but I wouldn't count on a bicycle helmet to safe the day if that happens. And while our heads most certainly evolved to take a beating, they're indeed not very good at it, but then again, your typical bicycle accident won't result in much of a beating. And yes, the head is a bit higher over the surface, usually, but that's not going to make a huge difference.
I don't get this part. My head is not higher biking than when standing or running.

So I guess I'd be safer falling off the bike than stumbling ...
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Old 06-06-14, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I don't get this part. My head is not higher biking than when standing or running.

So I guess I'd be safer falling off the bike than stumbling ...
Same here, generally. My head's a bit lower than standing head height when I'm on my road bikes and XC MTB. Maybe a tad higher on my Trail MTB, but not much if any.
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Old 06-06-14, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
Yes, and the lot of you happily ignore that, judging from all the "A Helmet Saved My Life" stories, that describe accidents that most likely wouldn't have had a bad outcome regardless of whether the accidentee was donning a helmet or not. ...
The "A Helmet Save My Life" crowd is who you are calling helmet advocates? I think you'll find that most of those are noobs who tend to wander in, post their anecdotes and never bother to return. They are not what I'd call a strong voice of advocacy.

Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
...
Perhaps, the difference is that I don't bother random people with my (arguably somewhat weird) desire to talk a lot about cycling helmets, I go (for example) to a specially quarantined thread normal people can avoid like the plague if they wished to do so.. It's the difference between going to church, and bothering random bystanders on the street with your religious beliefs, really. So you can stop emulating butt-hurt now.
Some of you Bare-Headers come to this thread to whine and complain about strangers on the street, violating most social norms to yell at you. You stick out your bottom lip and pout about how mistreated you are by random strangers, in the real-life world. You equate those people from your real-life world with anyone in this thread who chooses to wear a helmet.
You are not, as you claim, coming here to discuss helmets. You are coming here to express how people you've encountered, (who have no connection to anyone on this forum) have hurt your feelings. Luckily, my butt-hurt is just an emulation.
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Old 06-06-14, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MMACH 5
Some of you Bare-Headers come to this thread to whine and complain about strangers on the street, violating most social norms to yell at you. You stick out your bottom lip and pout about how mistreated you are by random strangers, in the real-life world. You equate those people from your real-life world with anyone in this thread who chooses to wear a helmet.
Nah. I laugh hilariously when that happens. No pouting.
Originally Posted by MMACH 5
You are not, as you claim, coming here to discuss helmets. You are coming here to express how people you've encountered, (who have no connection to anyone on this forum) have hurt your feelings. Luckily, my butt-hurt is just an emulation.
That is one of the things I discuss when I see other people discussing it. My feelings aren't hurt by jackass helmeteers but I do wonder why they're such jackasses.

I've posted numerous times about why I wear helmets for some rides and don't wear helmets for other rides. Many more times than I've posted about people telling me to wear a helmet.

You're painting with a broad brush there, I think.
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Old 06-06-14, 01:01 PM
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BTW, Performance Bike posted about the helmet debate the other day. The blog comments were mostly blah but the Facebook comments were riddled with hilarity. A lot of "organ donor", "helmet saved my life" and "non-helmeted heads aren't worth saving anyways" vitriol in there.
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Old 06-06-14, 01:02 PM
  #7813  
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
...
You're painting with a broad brush there, I think.
I did say "Some of you Bare-Headers..."

In the second piece of my post that you quoted, I was talking specifically about the previous post that I quoted. (I wasn't using a "royal you.")

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Old 06-06-14, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
BTW, Performance Bike posted about the helmet debate the other day. The blog comments were mostly blah but the Facebook comments were riddled with hilarity. A lot of "organ donor", "helmet saved my life" and "non-helmeted heads aren't worth saving anyways" vitriol in there.
Yes, that is counter productive to those commenters' goals.
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Old 06-06-14, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
BTW, Performance Bike posted about the helmet debate the other day. The blog comments were mostly blah but the Facebook comments were riddled with hilarity. A lot of "organ donor", "helmet saved my life" and "non-helmeted heads aren't worth saving anyways" vitriol in there.
"Let Darwin sort them out!" says one angel of mercy.

It's more than a little perverse that those who purport to have the health and safety of others in mind can seem almost gleeful at the prospect of our extinction if we don't take their advice.
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Old 06-06-14, 03:15 PM
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The "A Helmet Save My Life" crowd is who you are calling helmet advocates?
Anyone who advocates the use of cycling helmets, is a helmet advocate.

I can't make much sense of most of the rest of your ramblings especially what they have to do with me. No one wears a helmet around here, so bicycle helmet advocacy isn't really a thing in these parts. And are you seriously complaining that people in a bicycle helmet thread are arguing about bicycle helmets and their advocates? WTF?

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Old 06-06-14, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I don't get this part. My head is not higher biking than when standing or running.
Hence the word usually, which implies "not always"

But regardless of the head is higher or lower, it won't usually be by a lot, so it doesn't make much of a difference for the fall and resulting impact. Which was the point.

Last edited by CarinusMalmari; 06-06-14 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 06-06-14, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 905
It's more than a little perverse that those who purport to have the health and safety of others in mind can seem almost gleeful at the prospect of our extinction if we don't take their advice.
As with many things helmet, there are some parallels with dogmatic religion here. I never saw one of the "anti-helmet" crowd express hope that a helmet-mongers find out the hard way that bicycle helmets aren't all that. Not that this would lead to a very satisfying "I told you so" moment, because after all, bicycle helmets work in mysterious ways.
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Old 06-06-14, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
Anyone who advocates the use of cycling helmets, is a helmet advocate.

I can't make sense of most of the rest of your ramblings. No one wears a helmet here, so bicycle helmet advocacy isn't really a thing here. And are you seriously complaining that people in a bicycle helmet thread are arguing about bicycle helmets and their advocates? WTF?
Just pointing out that coming here to complain about how rude you've been treated because you were helmetless, but then calling helmet wearers nannies seems a bit hypocritical.

There's plenty of ankle biting in this thread, on both sides. Glad we could both continue that pattern.
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Old 06-06-14, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
Hence the word usually, which implies "not always"

But regardless of the head is higher or lower, it won't usually be by a lot, so it doesn't make much of a difference for the fall and resulting impact. Which was the point.
That's the part of the point that's most wrong. It does make a difference, in fact it makes most of the difference in most falls. Speed is not a factor except in abrasions and cuts, or if you hit some vertical protrusion.

Weird that you want to snark since I basically supported what you were trying to say (the lower height makes the fall less dangerous, not more), but since you snark I'll remind you that what you were agreeing with your word "usually" : "all but recumbent riders and very casual riders" Dead wrong, no "usually" about it.

While we're here, the whole argument about what kind of damage we can withstand being related to evolution on the Savannah is more than a bit off the beam. We have evolved instincts to protect our heads and the physical capability to do so - the fact is that most people have allowed those capabilities to atrophy from lack of experience or training. I'd go even further in saying that the ability to protect oneself in a fall is far more efficacious than is wearing a helmet, and I'm often tempted to turn the argument around when anyone confronts me. Why doesn't that person learn how to fall without banging his head instead of worrying about the lack of a helmet on mine?

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Old 06-06-14, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton

While we're here, the whole argument about what kind of damage we can withstand being related to evolution on the Savannah is more than a bit off the beam. We have evolved instincts to protect our heads and the physical capability to do so - the fact is that most people have allowed those capabilities to atrophy from lack of experience or training. I'd go even further in saying that the ability to protect oneself in a fall is far more efficacious than is wearing a helmet, and I'm often tempted to turn the argument around when anyone confronts me. Why doesn't that person learn how to fall without banging his head instead of worrying about the lack of a helmet on mine?[/COLOR]
That, I believe is the the main "problem"... Not wearing a helmet while riding a bike is the same as... Walking around or driving with ear plugs in ones ears and texting while doing these things, even talking on the phone qualifies... I can't count the times some pedestrian walked out in front of me, while I was driving a vehicle and was TOTALLY oblivious of the fact that they could have just died because of what they just did...
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Old 06-06-14, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MMACH 5
There's plenty of ankle biting in this thread, on both sides. Glad we could both continue that pattern.
Wow, that's low down. I thought we could at least rank up there with the back-biters.
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Old 06-06-14, 09:21 PM
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Wow, people still rock this thread, huh?

Well, I have evolved to the point that I wear a helmet when I'm riding on the road because, you know, idiots in cars. But when I'm in "pedestrian" mode, either sidewalk for whatever reason or a paved dedicated path, I can go with or without it. I know it's not a magic bullet, so I don't pretend I'm invincible. I'm always interested in surviving every bike ride.

I think helmets are a good idea. I encourage people who want to ride aggressively on the street to use them. If you don't want to wear a helmet, I do not care. But DO NOT sit around and tell me a bunch of bull**** reasons for not wearing one and how wearing one is "actually more dangerous" and all other sorts of "propaganda." I work at a shop and we get these guys from time to time. I don't even engage them. They're the sort that are mostly talking to hear themselves speak anyways. Hence the bulk of these 300+ pages, I guess. (Says the guy who typed up a bunch of stuff other people don't want to read.)
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Old 06-06-14, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels
(Says the guy who typed up a bunch of stuff other people don't want to read.)
I read it. It's all good here. Like you, I wear a helmet on my bikes (and skates, and skateboards). I also do not care what other people wear. I want everybody to be happy.
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Old 06-06-14, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels
Wow, people still rock this thread, huh?

Well, I have evolved to the point that I wear a helmet when I'm riding on the road because, you know, idiots in cars. But when I'm in "pedestrian" mode, either sidewalk for whatever reason or a paved dedicated path, I can go with or without it. I know it's not a magic bullet, so I don't pretend I'm invincible. I'm always interested in surviving every bike ride.

I think helmets are a good idea. I encourage people who want to ride aggressively on the street to use them. If you don't want to wear a helmet, I do not care. But DO NOT sit around and tell me a bunch of bull**** reasons for not wearing one and how wearing one is "actually more dangerous" and all other sorts of "propaganda." I work at a shop and we get these guys from time to time. I don't even engage them. They're the sort that are mostly talking to hear themselves speak anyways. Hence the bulk of these 300+ pages, I guess. (Says the guy who typed up a bunch of stuff other people don't want to read.)
Ha, I believe I have been saying that for years.... It's the main reason I'm still here...
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