rydabent

Again I am against MLHs, I always wear a helmet even when on my trike, and I have NEVER yelled at anyone without a helmet.

905 

People still rock this thread because it's obviously fun to argue about, and ammunition is constantly being supplied and resupplied. Take the rest of your post. Here is how I would respond if I wanted to engage:

Stop right there. You mean those who don't wear a helmet haven't evolved? We're lesser creatures? Them's fightin' words, Tex.

at least you're riding. Often, non-riders – civilians, we'll call them – enter the fray in comment sections and letters to the editor. How dare they! Alas, they dare, further swelling the ranks of the pro-helmet faction till those of us who await Darwin's swift justice feel all but surrounded.

Not everybody will interpret your shorthand the way you desire. Some will quote that study or provide personal anecdotes which show that "Idiots in cars" tend to actually drive closer when you're wearing a helmet. Others will point out that a 'plastic hat' is unlikely to be efficacious when crunched under wheel.

The nuanced approach favored by, at last count, 20.46% (JB, there's your chance) in the poll. While theoretically this leaves you with a boot in both camps, it also makes you vulnerable on both flanks. If you come a cropper sans lid you will get no sympathy from the civilian whose dog leash you just got tangled in, or the hardcore helmeted; by wearing one at least part time, you aid and abet the forces of compulsion and advertise cycling as dangerous, or at least more dangerous than walking or driving (in which case see my own post upthread on the equal opportunity all forms of locomotion have to mess you up).

More nuance, but you're preaching to the choir [tiring momentarily of the war metaphor]. All us dumb brutes are interested in survival, if only to live to post another day.

Wait for it…

Awww, but you do care, else you wouldn't "encourage".

You probably don't need to be informed that "bull**** reasons" and "propaganda" are, as arguments go, duds without the power to harm, so I won't insult you.

This is smart. You don't want to alienate customers.

So you're just collateral damage.

Sometimes, very occasionally, once in a blue moon, people take the trouble to actually read what you've written. Isn't it nice when that happens?

905 

CarinusMalmari

You complain about me being snarky, and then you go on doing the same thing by interpreting "not much of a difference" as "no difference". What do you expect from me? Now it's open to interpretation as to what "not much" is, but my point was, that falling from any bicycle (except some rare types, like a tall bike) at average cycling speed falls in the category "Mostely Harmless"

I was agreeing to the general claim of a higher head position in cyclists. As far as I can tell, the typical cyclist is a utility cyclist who rides on a roadster or something with a similar seating position as a roadster, which will usually result in a slightly higher position of the head.

Quote:

While we're here, the whole argument about what kind of damage we can withstand being related to evolution on the Savannah is more than a bit off the beam. We have evolved instincts to protect our heads and the physical capability to do so - the fact is that most people have allowed those capabilities to atrophy from lack of experience or training. I'd go even further in saying that the ability to protect oneself in a fall is far more efficacious than is wearing a helmet, and I'm often tempted to turn the argument around when anyone confronts me. Why doesn't that person learn how to fall without banging his head instead of worrying about the lack of a helmet on mine?

I'm not all that sure that the mechanisms of self-preservation have diminished much, but we really have no way of knowing since we can't test for it. Unless you have some evidence, it's just your opinion, and some things suggest otherwise. For example: many, if not most, people do have a very strong reflex to protect their head from impacts with their arms. Often to the point that it has to be deprogrammed for certain sports and replaced with something that has a smaller chance of broken bones.

CarinusMalmari

I'm sure there are people who don't wear a bicycle helmet, because they think the moon is made of cheese. Now that would be a BS reason, but AFAICT most of the lidless II'm sure this includes a part-time lidless like yourself) have perfectly valid reasons to not wear a helmet. That you don't think these're valid reasons, is of little importance. Also, I don't see a lot of people arguing that helmets make things more dangerous, it's more that possible (and often plausible) drawbacks of helmets are pointed out. The lidless who actually tries to coerce people to stop wearing helmets, is a rare beast. Unlike all the people who want to coerce or even force people to comply to their beliefs and customs around Magical Foam Hats.

CarinusMalmari

.....without a helmet.

Because if our abilities to protect our heads during cycling accidents have diminished, this is also true for walking/jogging/running accidents. So this deficiency has to be dealt with in the same way as with cycling. Avoiding distraction is a way of preventing accidents, which is quite different from damage control by means of protective gear or falling techniques in case of an accident.

CarinusMalmari

905 btw, I'm going to steal that other picture from you

905 

No problem. I took it in York. (You can grab a larger version of it here, on one of my oddly-named blogs.)

wphamilton

If you'd had any training at all, you'd know how silly that was.

CarinusMalmari

But then again, we're not talking about training, we're talking about naturally evolved reflexes, etc. Or at least I was. If you'd had any reading comprehension skills at all, you'd have understood that.

wphamilton

Yes, and someone who has the experience, training or knowledge of it realizes that's not that terrifically hard. Gymnast, tumbling, martial arts, any number of ways - you'd know that a large part of it IS instinctive and natural.

You're bandying about "reading comprehension" and other patronizing phrases, and it's because you literally know nothing about the subject.

CarinusMalmari

Reflexes, instincts and all the other evolved innate behavioral/motoric stuff, will manifest itself spontaneously without any form of learning or training. for example, if falling techniques were a natural reflex/instinct, we would be doing judo rolls and parachute landing falls spontaneously by the time we were toddlers or so. We don't. So despite all the martial arts guru mumbo jumbo, it's not already there, you have to learn it. In an extra twist of irony, I know enough about falling techniques to know many involve active suppression of one of your innate "falling techniques" which would be the reflex to break your fall with your arms.

If you can't take it, I suggest you stop dishing it out. I even used your own word patterns to be all Captain O. about it.

Well, at least I looked at the Wikipedia page for Instinct, you apparently use big words without looking them up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism towards a particular complex behavior. The simplest example of an instinctive behavior is a fixed action pattern, in which a very short to medium length sequence of actions, without variation, are carried out in response to a clearly defined stimulus. Any behavior is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience (that is, in the absence of learning), and is therefore an expression of innate biological factors.

wphamilton

All incorrect, and in this context it's still obvious that you have no knowledge or experience in the techniques in question. Else you'd know better.

Nor the science involved including evolution. Just stop

CarinusMalmari

So what you're saying is that the knee-jerk reflex is actually the result of training, and that birds fly south in winter because they learn that in school? Because if what I say is all incorrect, both instinct and reflexes are the result of some form of training or education.

Well, please enlighten me then, Oh Great One. But for some reason I expect you won't, and in that case I (and everyone in his right mind, really) am going to assume because you can't.

Pro-tip, you might want to look big words like "science" and "evolution" up before you publicly use them in a sentence.

wphamilton

No, I'm saying that skills do not manifest spontaneously, even those for which we have evolved the instinct and capability (as first written). And that everything you wrote about the falling and rolling skills was incorrect.

They are going to assume that it's not worthwhile for me to do so.


I don't argue when I suspect Dunning Kruger. Sorry, but I'm done here.

rydabent

Knowing how to fall and yada yada. When my sons were teenagers, they told me that teens avoides accidents with their lightening quick reflexes. Several times while driving around town I was able to point out to them some teen piled into the back end of another car. I told the boys-----------yup another teen with lightening quick reflexes huh? Same with biking and telling me you know how to fall.

905 

Sorry, couldn't resist. If I had a nickel for every time I've read that on a thread like this, I could buy Monticello.

On a brighter note, the Dunning Kruger reference led me to McArthur Wheeler.



Am considering getting a jersey made: "But I wore the juice!"

wphamilton

LOL true but when it starts getting ugly no one wants to see it anyway so there's not much point.

CarinusMalmari

But then again, we're not talking about skills (at least not in general), but about reflexes and instincts.

Quote:

even those for which we have evolved the

Instincts are innate "skills" that by their very nature manifest themselves spontaneously. You really should start looking up words now, because this is getting silly. I don't know what the emphasis on the word "capability" is for, but I suspect you don't really understand it either.


I don't remember I've written a whole lot about "falling and rolling skills". But please enlighten what you're referring to, and what was wrong with it.

Sure because most people are new on the internet and no one ever encountered the "You are ignorant, I'm an expert, but I'm not going to bother to make an argument" tactic before.

Isn't that when people declare themselves to be experts, for example in all things falling, but then it turns out that they really overestimate their abilities and all they really are able to is making variations on the (for want of a better word) argument "I'm smart, you are stupid"?

Is that Dunning Kruger New-speak for "I'm all out of arguments?"

Well, when it starts getting ugly for you, you don't want to see it, perhaps, because I'm still as happy as a pig in a mud pool.

I reckon this means we agree I won the internet today?

CarinusMalmari

Humans are slow animals, and not particularly suited for moving at speeds that exceed our natural capabilities to react, like when driving a cars. A cyclist, on the other hand, typically moves at speeds that are pretty compatible with human reaction times and reflexes. So it's most definitely not the same.

JoeyBike

What about fighter pilots? Speed AND reflexes in 3 dimensions. We weren't exactly designed for that. Don't underestimate human capability WHEN there is total focus on the task at hand.

rydabent

Would cycling actually be fun if you had to have total focus at all times while riding?

How do you explain all the world class professional cyclist that are injured or killed? If anyone would have total focus while riding they should.

JoeyBike

If this were the Commuting Forum my answer would be: "Hell NO, it's NOT FUN!" Some of my past commutes were downright hateful and required total concentration on the matter at hand. How many commutes in a car or on a bike are really fun? Not too many I bet. Some are just more risky than others. But even cycling on a lovely MUP in the country, you shouldn't just zone-out if you want to be courteous to cyclists overtaking you. You don't need to be "fighter pilot" aware, but you still should pay attention on some level.

Exposure. There is your answer. Do you have the slightest idea how much time professional racers spend cycling on roads shared with cars? And how fatigued they get especially towards the end of a 120 mile training ride? Time spend on the road + number of cognitive lapses = increasing risk.

OldTryGuy

With ALL of my experiments performed to reassure mankind that gravity does indeed still exist in my almost 64 years on this marble, I should have reacted much better in my latest fall over on 5/24/2014 and my crash on 5/29/2014. Slow, very slow learner.

The helmet afforded the cushion that allowed my head to BOUNCE up on the 5/29/2014 crash without suffering ill effects to my mellon. Can't say that about the helmet though.

elcruxio

Are you saying you zone out while you are riding? I mean it is possible with a trike but seems to me you're making ridin more risky than it should be.

Zoning out with a two wheeled bike will result in a fall very quickly. Or maybe you can learn to ride while not paying attention. I learned to sleep while I was standing in form in the army. Neither is a good idea though.