View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
08-17-14, 05:27 AM
#8576
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have discovered a good solution for these folks. I slam on the brakes, make a U-turn, chase the offender down, and deliver a wild-eyed, spittle-flecked, screaming tirade about helmets, bike safety, and parentage. I have reason to believe that this has cured the helmet-yelling tendencies of several local cyclists.
(Also I read "I slam on the U-turn brakes" for a second and was going to ask you what sort of retro mtb you were riding - they're my personal choice for safest bike.)
08-17-14, 06:51 AM
#8578
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
08-17-14, 09:05 AM
#8579
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,763
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,393 Times
in
944 Posts
Ok: previously you claimed that driver training has no effect on accident rate, so you clearly accepted that what works for cars works for bikes. We now that driver training plausibly has a very large effect on accidents. So your rants are becoming stranger and stranger.
- Would you really be happy if the US let untrained drivers on the road?
- Would you fly on an airliner with untrained pilots?
- Admitting that in London at least half of fatals are from HGVs, do you really think that simply knowing this doesn't increase safety? Are you saying that you are so stupid that you wouldn't use this information and stay away from them, especially if you were given tactics to do so and practiced them? And if you are that smart, why aren't other people?
That we have an absence of statistics for courses - and that current courses may be poorly designed - is irrelevant to whether or not a course plausibly could cut deaths. Simply staying away from HGVs will do so in London - and probably other cities.
- Would you really be happy if the US let untrained drivers on the road?
- Would you fly on an airliner with untrained pilots?
- Admitting that in London at least half of fatals are from HGVs, do you really think that simply knowing this doesn't increase safety? Are you saying that you are so stupid that you wouldn't use this information and stay away from them, especially if you were given tactics to do so and practiced them? And if you are that smart, why aren't other people?
That we have an absence of statistics for courses - and that current courses may be poorly designed - is irrelevant to whether or not a course plausibly could cut deaths. Simply staying away from HGVs will do so in London - and probably other cities.
Your Bottom Line answer to the question of the validity of YOUR claim that cycling courses reduce the odds of serious accidents 2-4 times then is: you made it up, and at best, maybe a cycling course might plausibly alter cycling behavior of some unknown % of the students and do some good.
Just like helmets, eh? Maybe, might do some good, but irrelevant that they are so poorly designed that credible positive evidence is non existent.
Edit: Just to clarify, I made no claim that "driver training has no effect on accident rate". I pointed out that incorrect behavior occurs despite near 100% training that gives instructions that such incorrect behavior is unsafe or illegal or both. Thus I did NOT "clearly accept that what works for cars works for bikes."
The point is that even if a cycling course gives out correct behavior instruction there is no certitude (as you seem to have) that the students, in the absence of any other changes in cycling environment, will either significantly alter their current behavior or have less accidents.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 08-17-14 at 09:50 AM.
08-17-14, 09:26 AM
#8580
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,763
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,393 Times
in
944 Posts
In Soviet Holland, where cycling training is, among other things, part of the elementary school curriculum, a lot of the behavioral problems you mentioned are barely or not at all present.
-HGV vehicles have mandatory extra mirrors that eliminate most of the blindspots, still a Dutch 8 yo can tell you to take extra care around big vehicles.
-Dutch Cyclist have a keen understanding where to ride their bicycles, and generally behave like that. "Cycling on highways" for example is an non-existent concept in Dutch culture.
-Cycling drunk, well it's complicated, but most people understand it's not a good idea.
-I was baffled to learn that salmoning was actually a thing in other countries. Everyone understands that it's not a good idea to ride on the wrong side of the road.
-Lights; you mean there are people who don't understand the merits of lights?
-Riding on pavements: It happens, but everyone knows they're not supposed to do it.
So yeah, I think training does make a difference.
There is a reason why the American driver's licence has limited legal value in NL. Mainly because American standards of training drivers are a joke compared to the Dutch equivalent.
-HGV vehicles have mandatory extra mirrors that eliminate most of the blindspots, still a Dutch 8 yo can tell you to take extra care around big vehicles.
-Dutch Cyclist have a keen understanding where to ride their bicycles, and generally behave like that. "Cycling on highways" for example is an non-existent concept in Dutch culture.
-Cycling drunk, well it's complicated, but most people understand it's not a good idea.
-I was baffled to learn that salmoning was actually a thing in other countries. Everyone understands that it's not a good idea to ride on the wrong side of the road.
-Lights; you mean there are people who don't understand the merits of lights?
-Riding on pavements: It happens, but everyone knows they're not supposed to do it.
So yeah, I think training does make a difference.
There is a reason why the American driver's licence has limited legal value in NL. Mainly because American standards of training drivers are a joke compared to the Dutch equivalent.
08-17-14, 09:27 AM
#8581
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,815
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3238 Post(s)
Liked 1,007 Times
in
603 Posts
I think it is a huge joke that some wont take even a slight step to protect themselves. On the other hand it is not a joke that they try to convince others they shouldnt.
Last edited by no1mad; 08-17-14 at 01:22 PM.
08-17-14, 10:10 AM
#8582
52psi
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,083
Bikes: Schwinn Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 777 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times
in
361 Posts
Jesus hell man, there are so many dangers! If we just take a slight step to protect ourselves against each of them, we'll finally be ... say it with me now ... absolutely safe.
No thanks.
[Edit: Holy cow. Two posts in this thread and my sarcasm meter is off the charts. Gonna go ahead and eject. Leave it to the professionals.]
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Last edited by Fahrenheit531; 08-17-14 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Sarcasm run amok - ejection seat engaged.
08-17-14, 11:06 AM
#8583
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Indiana
Posts: 478
Bikes: 2015 Trek 7.3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Where's the "i'm too young and attractive for helmets" option? Okay, really. I feel like I shouldn't even get involved with this thread, but I don't wear a helmet and never have.
Part of what I like about cycling is being able to hop on a bike and go, a helmet and some saftey checklist are just more things that get in the way of me riding.
Part of what I like about cycling is being able to hop on a bike and go, a helmet and some saftey checklist are just more things that get in the way of me riding.
08-17-14, 11:17 AM
#8584
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 37,686
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5257 Post(s)
Liked 1,568 Times
in
897 Posts
Where's the "i'm too young and attractive for helmets" option? Okay, really. I feel like I shouldn't even get involved with this thread, but I don't wear a helmet and never have.
Part of what I like about cycling is being able to hop on a bike and go, a helmet and some saftey checklist are just more things that get in the way of me riding.
Part of what I like about cycling is being able to hop on a bike and go, a helmet and some saftey checklist are just more things that get in the way of me riding.
You may not want a helmet when riding, but I hope you've donned your chain mail.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
08-17-14, 11:24 AM
#8585
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Indiana
Posts: 478
Bikes: 2015 Trek 7.3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think i'll be alright. What other people do is of no consequence to me, if a helmet makes them feel safer wear one! I'm not here to tell people what I think they should do, but i'm happy to share my viewpoint.
08-17-14, 11:42 AM
#8586
52psi
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,083
Bikes: Schwinn Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 777 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times
in
361 Posts
Hilarious. And so very true. 
Side note: Somebody made a movie based on Dante's Inferno, but they did it entirely with paper dolls (no kidding). It's actually a really good attempt and stays very true to the original text. Check it out if you're at all into Dante; it was on Netflix last time I checked.
This is exactly where I am. Reminds me of the old bumper sticker about the difference between tattooed and non-tattooed people: people that have tattoos don't care if you don't. The only reason I entered this fracas was to hear from the guys who shout "HELMET!" what they hope to achieve. No response thus far.
Side note: Somebody made a movie based on Dante's Inferno, but they did it entirely with paper dolls (no kidding). It's actually a really good attempt and stays very true to the original text. Check it out if you're at all into Dante; it was on Netflix last time I checked.
This is exactly where I am. Reminds me of the old bumper sticker about the difference between tattooed and non-tattooed people: people that have tattoos don't care if you don't. The only reason I entered this fracas was to hear from the guys who shout "HELMET!" what they hope to achieve. No response thus far.
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Last edited by Fahrenheit531; 08-17-14 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Multi-quote responses.
08-17-14, 12:24 PM
#8588
Senior Member
What I wrote clearly was that Meanwhile left the firm ground that he stood on when discussing helmet effectiveness, to fabricate a fantastic track record for serious accident reduction for some unspecified (or all) cycling safety courses. The issue isn't the benefit of knowledge and experience but the lack of evidence thatany existing cycling safety course or program of instruction imparts sufficient knowledge or experience to make any measurable difference in the safety record of its students.
08-17-14, 12:49 PM
#8589
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Hilarious. And so very true.
Side note: Somebody made a movie based on Dante's Inferno, but they did it entirely with paper dolls (no kidding). It's actually a really good attempt and stays very true to the original text. Check it out if you're at all into Dante; it was on Netflix last time I checked.
This is exactly where I am. Reminds me of the old bumper sticker about the difference between tattooed and non-tattooed people: people that have tattoos don't care if you don't. The only reason I entered this fracas was to hear from the guys who shout "HELMET!" what they hope to achieve. No response thus far.
Side note: Somebody made a movie based on Dante's Inferno, but they did it entirely with paper dolls (no kidding). It's actually a really good attempt and stays very true to the original text. Check it out if you're at all into Dante; it was on Netflix last time I checked.
This is exactly where I am. Reminds me of the old bumper sticker about the difference between tattooed and non-tattooed people: people that have tattoos don't care if you don't. The only reason I entered this fracas was to hear from the guys who shout "HELMET!" what they hope to achieve. No response thus far.
08-17-14, 01:04 PM
#8590
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 37,686
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5257 Post(s)
Liked 1,568 Times
in
897 Posts
Guys, chill out a bit.
Even by helmet thread standards which are the lowest possible, this is crossing the line. Feel free to disagree, but don't get so worked up that it becomes about who can shout incompetent liar the loudest. What's next, bold full caps? If you really believe someone is that far off base, make note of George Carlin's advice below.
Save the extreme rhetoric for when someone seriously proposes a mandatory helmet law. Until then stick to clubs and blackjacks, and leave the guns at home.
Even by helmet thread standards which are the lowest possible, this is crossing the line. Feel free to disagree, but don't get so worked up that it becomes about who can shout incompetent liar the loudest. What's next, bold full caps? If you really believe someone is that far off base, make note of George Carlin's advice below.
Save the extreme rhetoric for when someone seriously proposes a mandatory helmet law. Until then stick to clubs and blackjacks, and leave the guns at home.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by no1mad; 08-17-14 at 01:31 PM. Reason: removed quoted post that was deleted.
08-17-14, 01:09 PM
#8591
Thunder Whisperer
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OK
Posts: 8,852
Bikes: '06 Kona Smoke
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
2 Posts
Thread closed temporarily for clean up.
__________________
Community guidelines
Community guidelines
08-17-14, 01:34 PM
#8593
Thunder Whisperer
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OK
Posts: 8,852
Bikes: '06 Kona Smoke
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
2 Posts
Mindful of the wet floor signs 
__________________
Community guidelines
Community guidelines
08-17-14, 03:30 PM
#8594
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,763
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,393 Times
in
944 Posts
Interestingly neither survey inquired about whether anyone had taken the safety course in question or any other.
08-18-14, 10:00 PM
#8595
bragi
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: seattle, WA
Posts: 2,911
Bikes: LHT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
The war, so far as I am concerned is won. If people here are silly enough to get themselves killed because they rely on foam hats rather than knowledge of what their local risks are and appropriate routing and tactics to avoid them, well, I've never liked stupid people anyway.
08-18-14, 10:16 PM
#8596
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 37,686
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5257 Post(s)
Liked 1,568 Times
in
897 Posts
The statistic you're referring to says nothing remotely similar to what you're inferring from it.
Reread the document where you got it carefully and you might see that there are other conclusions. One thing to consider is that many if not most deaths of bicyclists are from gross bodily trauma, ie. fractures, bleed outs, and internal organ damage, which may or may not be accompanied by head injuries, but would be fatal, head injury or not.
Also, the percentage of deaths among non-helmeted vs. helmeted cyclists, has to be factored against the percentage of riding without vs. with.
I don't argue that some that die from head injuries may have lived if they'd been wearing a helmet, but the numbers are much slimmer than you were misled to believe by your source.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
08-19-14, 11:11 AM
#8597
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
The war is most decidedly not won. I agree with you that the safety value of helmets is dubious at best, but you're going to have to do a lot better than the "foam hat" argument. I personally hate helmets, and deeply suspect that they are mostly unnecessary, but when you're faced with stats that tell you that 90% of bicyclist deaths are due to head injuries of the un-helmeted, you have to do a lot better than "foam hat" snarkiness. Stick with facts if you want your cause to be taken seriously.
08-19-14, 11:21 AM
#8598
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,325
Bikes: Mecian
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 506 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
7 Posts
Intuitively correct but not factually correct.
EDIT: Upon reflect of FB's post below I agree with him, the post I was referring to is correct, yet in ignoring the probability of a head strike where a helmet is effective I think its more shallow and incomplete. However, if wearing a helmet makes the poster feel safer than he should by all means wear one. On the other hand, the shallowness of the argument doesn't convince me of any need to wear one.
EDIT: Upon reflect of FB's post below I agree with him, the post I was referring to is correct, yet in ignoring the probability of a head strike where a helmet is effective I think its more shallow and incomplete. However, if wearing a helmet makes the poster feel safer than he should by all means wear one. On the other hand, the shallowness of the argument doesn't convince me of any need to wear one.
Last edited by howsteepisit; 08-19-14 at 11:37 AM.
08-19-14, 11:30 AM
#8599
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 37,686
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5257 Post(s)
Liked 1,568 Times
in
897 Posts
Actually it is ----- as far as it goes. But what isn't answered is the degree of reduction in impact G-force, the impact speed (energy) range at which it makes a meaningful difference, the effects of increased head diameter, the effect of fit and position on the head, etc.
That helmets likely lead to improved outcomes in some (many?) types of head strikes is pretty hard to debate. What makes this thread so rancorous is that lack of specific data quantifying how much improvement, or the working energy range, and of course, the likelihood of an accident that falls within the parameters.
In many ways it's a debate of faith vs. science between those who believe intuitively in the benefits of helmets, and those who don't.
BTW- there's both intuition and science on both sides of the debate, but intuition and faith play the dominant roles.
That helmets likely lead to improved outcomes in some (many?) types of head strikes is pretty hard to debate. What makes this thread so rancorous is that lack of specific data quantifying how much improvement, or the working energy range, and of course, the likelihood of an accident that falls within the parameters.
In many ways it's a debate of faith vs. science between those who believe intuitively in the benefits of helmets, and those who don't.
BTW- there's both intuition and science on both sides of the debate, but intuition and faith play the dominant roles.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
08-20-14, 06:02 AM
#8600
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, East bay
Posts: 8,368
Bikes: Miyata 618 GT, Marinoni, Kestral 200 2002 Trek 5200, KHS Flite, Koga Miyata, Schwinn Spitfire 5, Mondia Special, Univega Alpina, Miyata team Ti, Santa Cruz Highball
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1479 Post(s)
Liked 2,077 Times
in
1,029 Posts
Beyond the initial impact, wouldn't you think a helmet saves some skin? If you get knocked out, you really don't have control of what part of your body is grinding into the asphalt.
