View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
#6401
Senior Member
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So how do we decide which risk categories? and who gets to decide?
By any measure of societal impact bicycle head injuries is a small contributor, and includes a large percentage of helmet wearers anyway. So the societal benefit of a helmet mandate isn't that big.
But there are areas with much higher societal cost, such as unsafe sex or diet/obesity/diabetes? Since we're talking about societal cost impact, wouldn't it make sense to start where the impact is greatest? And if we want to limit it to bicycle accident/injury rates, it might make sense (to some people) to tackle the issue head on by removing bicycles from roads altogether?
There's more to life than worrying about who's costing you money somehow, and it doesn't take a rugged individualist to see that.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6402
Senior Member
If you wear a helmet only when you want, I simply want you to pledge that if you happen to hit your head while riding helmetless and require medical treatment for a head injury, you pay cash out of pocket instead of relying on insurance. If you never hit your head, as you claim; if cycling is really as safe as you claim, then it should mean nothing to you to make such a pledge. Also, it would make you a true individualist.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-10-13 at 05:34 PM.
#6403
Senior Member
I wish no changes to current standards. I simply want you to square your individualist logic with the shared risk of insurance.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6404
Senior Member
So you agree that it is a cost contributor to society?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6405
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,545
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
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Wake up, you absolutely would not ant to live in the kind of world you envision. Or maybe you would?
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6406
Senior Member
I'm sure there are. But we are talking about cycling and helmets. Not other activities such as showering, skiing, racing, or driving.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6407
Senior Member
Why do you keep trying to change the subject? Does shared cost in the form of insurance mean individual behaviors impact a group? That is the question. I think the answer is yes.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-10-13 at 05:48 PM.
#6408
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,545
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
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Of course it is, along with all kinds of things. The difference between you and I (on this point) is you want to pick what costs you'll share, and which you won't.
I don't complain about every little thing that people do that raises my costs, and ask that they return the favor.
And as it stands right now, the medical insurance pool is up well over 200k (probably double that based on time/value) based on what I've paid in insurance premiums vs the near zero in lifetime medical services used. At almost 65, I'm still with zero prescription medication, never been hospitalized for any reason, and have lifetime accumulated less than $5,000 in total cost of medical treatments or diagnostics.
However, I'm not going to complain about what you've probably cost me.
I don't complain about every little thing that people do that raises my costs, and ask that they return the favor.
And as it stands right now, the medical insurance pool is up well over 200k (probably double that based on time/value) based on what I've paid in insurance premiums vs the near zero in lifetime medical services used. At almost 65, I'm still with zero prescription medication, never been hospitalized for any reason, and have lifetime accumulated less than $5,000 in total cost of medical treatments or diagnostics.
However, I'm not going to complain about what you've probably cost me.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6409
Senior Member
I have no children. If you do, then I've paid more than my fair share to you and yours. But I am not resentful; education is a wonderful thing and I am glad to subsidize another person's child.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6410
Senior Member
Good. We agree then. But all costs are shared, either implicitly or explicitly. I think what you mean to say is there are some lifestyles you are not allowed to discriminate against when setting up an explicit resource pool (insurance). As it should be.
But do you see how all costs of living are shared as long as we live in a society? The Randian individualist doesn't actually exist in real life.
But do you see how all costs of living are shared as long as we live in a society? The Randian individualist doesn't actually exist in real life.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6411
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Not asking you to. Just asking you to address the topic I raised instead of raising red herrings.
If you wear a helmet only when you want, I simply want you to pledge that if you happen to hit your head while riding helmetless and require medical treatment for a head injury, you pay cash out of pocket instead of relying on insurance. If you never hit your head, as you claim; if cycling is really as safe as you claim, then it should mean nothing to you to make such a pledge. Also, it would make you a true individualist.
If you wear a helmet only when you want, I simply want you to pledge that if you happen to hit your head while riding helmetless and require medical treatment for a head injury, you pay cash out of pocket instead of relying on insurance. If you never hit your head, as you claim; if cycling is really as safe as you claim, then it should mean nothing to you to make such a pledge. Also, it would make you a true individualist.
However, if I could get good, free, low-deductable, no co-pay insurance in exchange for signing such a waiver I'd GLADLY do so.
#6412
Senior Member
I don't think risk of head injuries from most transportational cycling activities should be singled out on a waiver such as yours. There are plenty of other risky behaviours you should be asking people to sign waivers for.
If I could get free insurance in exchange for signing such a waiver I'd GLADLY do so.
If I could get free insurance in exchange for signing such a waiver I'd GLADLY do so.
Now then, the question is whether you'll now align your rhetoric on this subject to be in line with what you are willing to charge to stand up for your ideals. If the risk of crashing while cycling were really very near zero, then it would make no difference to you one way or another to take up this pledge. You were the one to put a price on it.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6413
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,545
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
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Good. We agree then. But all costs are shared, either implicitly or explicitly. I think what you mean to say is there are some lifestyles you are not allowed to discriminate against when setting up an explicit resource pool (insurance). As it should be.
But do you see how all costs of living are shared as long as we live in a society? The Randian individualist doesn't actually exist in real life.
But do you see how all costs of living are shared as long as we live in a society? The Randian individualist doesn't actually exist in real life.
You have yet to justify mandating helmets, based in cost impact in the overall scheme of American life, an THAT is the point.
You believe what you want to, I'm done wasting my time here.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6414
Senior Member
I never said they weren't. EVERYTHING has external costs. From the day you were born, you were having a cost borne by society in general. But that doesn't justify micromanaging life selecting a single activity just because you have a smug, sanctimonious attitude about what's an appropriate level of risk involved.
You have yet to justify mandating helmets, based in cost impact in the overall scheme of American life, an THAT is the point.
You believe what you want to, I'm done wasting my time here.
You have yet to justify mandating helmets, based in cost impact in the overall scheme of American life, an THAT is the point.
You believe what you want to, I'm done wasting my time here.
EDIT: I forgot my over-the-top invective. Er... let's see... And nobody is forcing you to smugly and sanctimoniously type on a computer to a cycling forum website. Er... yea.... It's weak but I am unpracticed with the $20 words.
Anyway, I'm glad we've gotten around to agreeing. Yes, your choices do influence the people around you, including your choice to wear a helmet or not.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-10-13 at 06:12 PM.
#6415
cowboy, steel horse, etc
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Okay, so you'll take up this offer for a price (fully subsidized insurance). This price is, then, exactly the cost you believe you distribute to other people when you choose not to wear a helmet. This is just logic, and this is fine. Sensible even.
Now then, the question is whether you'll now align your rhetoric on this subject to be in line with what you are willing to charge to stand up for your ideals. If the risk of crashing while cycling were really very near zero, then it would make no difference to you one way or another to take up this pledge. You were the one to put a price on it.
Now then, the question is whether you'll now align your rhetoric on this subject to be in line with what you are willing to charge to stand up for your ideals. If the risk of crashing while cycling were really very near zero, then it would make no difference to you one way or another to take up this pledge. You were the one to put a price on it.
Why do you propose people sign such waivers?
#6416
Senior Member
I think asking people to forgo treatment for engaging in perfectly healthy activities is WRONG. I also think medical care pool cost savings due to health benefits realized from cycling with or without a helmet outweigh the pool's increased TBI costs due to a percentage of people not wearing helmets.
Why do you propose people sign such waivers?
Why do you propose people sign such waivers?
It is probably true that in practice, more people in the pool on bikes the better because of the fitness aspect. But this is not the argument being examined here. The argument is whether the decision to wear a helmet or forgo it for convenience is affecting only the individual. It is assumed that the individual will be on a bike either way. I think we've actually settled on the solution. The decision to forgo a helmet does push costs onto society, you've put a price on it, and so either the risks are not invisibly low or nobody is really willing to live up to the Randian individualist rhetoric (and are subsequently okay with being a little bit of a free-loader).
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-10-13 at 06:14 PM.
#6417
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
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Here's something else we probably don't agree on. As far as I can figure, you're either an idiot or a troll. Of course I could be wrong, but it doesn't matter.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6418
Senior Member
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6419
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Any one person's choice to not wear a helmet for any given bike ride may or may not push some kind of cost onto society.
I'm not sure why you feel this possible cost is great enough to require all cyclists to wear helmets. Just doesn't make any sense to me, especially when compared to other similar activities that don't have helmet laws in place.
Why stop at regular old bike helmets? Why not full face helmets?
I'm not sure why you feel this possible cost is great enough to require all cyclists to wear helmets. Just doesn't make any sense to me, especially when compared to other similar activities that don't have helmet laws in place.
Why stop at regular old bike helmets? Why not full face helmets?
#6420
Senior Member
Do I need to flag this post as abuse? I have thus far refrained from directly insulting people.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6421
Senior Member
Ah, we are getting somewhere. Forget politics for a minute and focus on the cost to society part. We are narrowing down to the true question: under what conditions does forgoing a helmet NOT push a cost onto society (assuming accidents are basically statistical and not deterministically under the rider's control)?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#6422
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Ah, we are getting somewhere. Forget politics for a minute and focus on the cost to society part. We are narrowing down to the true question: under what conditions does forgoing a helmet NOT push a cost onto society (assuming accidents are basically statistical and not deterministically under the rider's control)?
How many 100000+ mile riders does it take to start adding up the medical bills?
#6423
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
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While some of us are actually interested in the issues involved, you seem to be more interested in a time wasting rhetorical exercise, after which you cop out saying you don't believe in the idea you were advocating for. That and the totally illogical leap from cost allocation to influencing opinion by example, seems to cover both the possibilities IMO, but as I said, I could be wrong. I simply can't figure it out.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6424
Senior Member
This is your true question. If everyone had your cycling history, then the answer is probably that the costs of so small as to be insignificant. Now, is everyone like you? I know people with far fewer miles and several fairly serious crashes for whatever reason. There is a population distribution to this question, but most of the data is fairly obscured. Now, as cyclists, we prefer the uncertainties lead to policies skewing in our favor.
But here's the thing. Injuries are tricky business when forming statistics. You might be fine for 100k miles and then incur a $100k medical bill to your insurance tomorrow. That $100k hospital bill might have been only $2k had you worn a helmet and mitigated the head trauma. The point I am making is that the decision to forgo a helmet does, averaged over a population, incur costs to society; that there are no Randian individuals; that the decision to wear a helmet or not is not, strictly speaking, a decision entirely devoid of social interest.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-10-13 at 06:45 PM.
#6425
Senior Member
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter