tbessie

Hey all...

I'm sure some variant of this has been talked to death, but it's relatively new for me.

I've lived in San Francisco for about 13 years, and cycled for many more than that. I can't say I'm the "perfect cycling citizen", but I'm pretty aware of my surroundings, at least slow down at stopsigns, stop at lights, give pedestrians right-of-way, am courteous, acknowledge other people on the road, etc.

For the last couple of years, however, I've noticed a HUGE growth in the number of cyclists who seem heedless of their surroundings, TAKE right-of-way whether it's theirs or not, zig-zag through intersections without stopping even if there are peds or cars there already, using the street as a kind of personal expression space as they careen downhill in totally unpredictable trajectories, and basically act like they are the only people on the road.

Most of those I see doing this I'd classify in the "hipster" or "fakenger" style - fixies/single-speeds, dickies, tattoos, etc. Not that there's anything wrong with that style, but it has seem to come with this kind of entitled attitude. I see this every day on my way to work and back (Haight/Ashbury neighborhood to downtown San Francisco). I also see it a lot on Valencia Street, which is, of course, Hipster Central.

I can't believe the lack of concern for their surroundings most of these guys (and they are mostly guys, not too many women being this rude) show.

Can anyone tell me what's changed in the last few years (besides the large growth in number of bikes on the streets, and prominence of bike advocacy) to make this happen? I mean, it's like the Keystone Cops On Bikes out there lately. As a cyclist, a pedestrian, and a driver, it's really starting to annoy me.

- Tim

RB1-luvr

I think you nailed your answer in your title and your post. It's the Sense of Entitlement Generation.

Seattle Forrest

No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.

tbessie

Eh, it's not merely "people I don't like". It's people who're putting other people in danger. Sure, I don't like it, but I don't like it for a very solid reason. It's not like I just don't like their clothes or something.

Where're you coming from with your comment? You seem to have your own agenda there.

- Tim

buzzman

I see people fitting that description all the time in NYC and sometimes in Boston. While I don't adopt that style of riding myself I'm actually pretty impressed at how seamlessly many of them "thread the needle". Is there any real evidence they are involved in accidents or cause accidents at any greater rate than other cyclists?

Many traffic laws are designed for the flow of automotive traffic and have little to do with the flow and momentum of bicycle traffic. Sometimes that kind of rogue cycling may appear "selfish" but may have more to do with survival by instinct as opposed to following convention. I'm not advocating it but just suggesting there may be less of a need for a knee jerk blanket reaction that labels a group of individuals as "Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists". It seems a little too easy a condemnation to make over an issue that is less black and white and actually has an underlying complexity.

tbessie

This I cannot say - I have searched for some stats on riding style/attitude vs. accident rate, but I haven't found a credible, serious study on the matter. I'm definitely impressed by the skill of some of these folks, but I can tell that it often scares the pants off of many peds, drivers, and even other cyclists. Rather than just tell those that it scares to suck it up, I tend to believe that cyclists need to be a bit more predictable in their riding movements. But that's just me. :-)

Of course - I'd like to see cities planned out much better such that bike, ped and car traffic were much more clearly separated, with separate and logical laws that applied to each transit type; given that we can't redesign cities from the ground up (not anytime soon anyway), and that as of this moment cars, peds and cycles have to share the road to a great extent, being more predictable (whatever way you travel) would be better for everyone. That said, even now that San Francisco has added more bike-friendly accoutrements (green-painted bike lanes, bicycle "islands", more bike routes, etc.), I find that that hasn't improved the friendliness or civic-mindedness of many of the bad-mannered cyclists I encounter - if anything, they are more rude to fellow cyclists, almost shouldering them aside in the bike lanes as they make their squirrelly way down the street to get to where they're going as fast as possible.

Yes, I admit the "heedless, entitled-seeming hipster cyclist" title may've come out too judgmental-sounding, but it was more to get attention to the discussion than to paint those people in a single color. Indeed, I know the cycling community is filled with many different sorts of people. It's the behavior I'm mentioning that I'm most peeved with (eg. car starts to move through intersection or ped starts to walk across crosswalk, and cyclist who was a half-block away a few seconds ago zooms through the intersection mere feet from the ped or car without even acknowledging them - that's bad manners whatever angle you come at it from). I can only say that I have noticed it most in people who appear to match the demographic and personal style that I mentioned, though I can't say why that is.

- Tim

Doohickie

Yeah, I see stuff like that. I blow it off. I'm not the world's policeman.

Looigi

Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.

tbessie

Heh, yes I can imagine - Bangkok and all the cities in India I visited were like that. Everyone was driving like mad.

- Tim

stonefree

I saw one like that in the local park a few weeks ago zig zagging around on an old ghetto cruiser with his tires nearly flat. I was not wanting to look at him when I passed for fear that I would see his eyes rolling and his tongue hanging out. Just chalked it up to a form of madness that seems to be getting more common, like inflation or the price of gas going up, or maybe a new street drug.

Transformer

"Riding with panache" isn't new or exclusive to San Francisco. I think we just notice it more, because there are so many more bikes on the road than there were ten years ago. There are a lot more cyclists and some of them are idiots.

hagen2456

I hope you've got a good excuse.

RaleighSport

Just keep them on your side of the Golden Gate please.

Bekologist

I don't know, i think the OP may be seeing things more from the windshield than from the streets?


When I ride in San Francisco, I have been increasingly impressed at the level of compliance with traffic signals of the riders I am with. Whenever I ride Market Street into Downtown or up to the Castro, i find most of my fellow cyclists stopping at the lights. Folsom into town in the mornings is the epitome of orderly cycling IMO.

I'm also of the opinion that once a 'critical mass' of riders coalesces on the street, an high degree of 'obey the rules' behavior spontaneously erupts in the cyclists. Queuing at stoplights is indicative of order in the bicycling population.

I don't think its that bad, and its getting better not worse. maybe the law breakers stand out more than the vast majority of riders, blending in with the rest of the traffic?

I ALWAYS ride with panache. i also predominately obey the rules of the road.

Chris516

Sounds like transplanted New Yorker's.

Chris516

Don't forget Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Phnom Penn, and Taiwan R.O.C.

Traffic in those cities/locales', is horrendous. It is like a giant game of dodge ball.

B. Carfree

Let's see, over 30,000 people killed by lawless motorists per year in the U.S. One's probability of being injured by scofflaw motorists over the course of an average lifetime are just about 50:50. JNow, just how many people have been killed by cyclists in the U.S. over the past century? A few less than 30,000, I would guess. Yet you are upset over scofflaw cyclists and are trying to pass it off as a concern over safety. Your claim seems insincere, to say the least.

silmarillion

I'llbedamned, and you would think that the cannabis cards would thin some of that riff-raff out.

tbessie

Not at all - I *do* drive, but I ride my bike a lot more than I drive... I'd say I walk or ride my bike or take public transport 80% of the time if not more. I avoid driving my car as much as possible. When I *do* drive, I'm more terrified of a cyclist weaving suddenly in front of me than I ever was in the past - might just be there's more bikes, but people seem to be riding less safely.

I also get annoyed just as much when cycling - on the way home tonight, for example, I came to a 4-way stop, and there were cars and peds already there. I stopped, allowed for the whole "yield to the right" rule to take place as I crossed one corner, then the next, then pushed on. Meanwhile, a guy who was behind me slipped around me and went diagonally through the intersection despite the fact that cars and peds were about to enter it. This all on a dark, rainy, slippery evening.

I had a momentary desire to catch up to him and push him off his neon-colored single-speed. :-/

Hmm, not sure what you mean *specifically* by "panache" - style, grace, skill?

In any case, as some have said, perhaps it's just because there so many more cyclists on the road than there were that I notice the idiots, but the proportion of idiots really does seem to've increased in all the years I've been riding in the city somehow.

Ah well.

- Tim

tbessie

Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with.

What has my sincerity got to do with it? I'm certainly sincere in my statement and concerns.

- Tim

gcottay

Maybe you are just a few years older.

tbessie

Heh - possibly. :-)

I try to guard against the "Get off my lawn! Damn kids!" syndrome, though.

- Tim

buzzman

I don't think it's another subject. I actually think the two are related.

Bicyclists are people on bikes. Drivers are people in cars. Pedestrians are people walking. Hmmm, anyone else see something in common between all of those groups. Why is it that when we see people do stupid things on bikes it's because they're "Heedless, Entitled, Seeming Hipster Cyclists", when it's people in cars doing something stupid they're "cagers". Come to NYC or any other busy city in the world and you want to see people do stupid things- watch the pedestrians!

Or go to a supermarket and watch how people drive their shopping carts.

Your observation has little to do with the means of conveyance. It has more to do with your perspective. It's all relative to the observer.

B. Carfree

There is just no empirical evidence that they are endangering anyone, therefore your contention that safety is at issue rings rather hollow. You clearly consider yourself a cyclist. They cycle differently than you do. Does that threaten your view of yourself as a cyclist? Do you really think the box is that small?

Sure, it would be nice if everyone played nice and by the rules. However, as long as no one is being physically hurt or threatened with harm, what is the big deal? Just for the record, I'm one of those strange cyclists who actually obeys all the traffic laws. I even come to complete stops at stop signs in the middle of nowhere. I still couldn't care less if other cyclists choose to do so as long as they don't harm anyone.

Heck, after over four decades of using a bike as either my primary or only means of transportation I'm thrilled beyond belief to have so many youngsters eschewing the car and using bikes. I'd rather cheer them on and then laugh at them in a decade or two when they have their knickers in a twist over what the next generation of youngsters is doing.

squirtdad

Empirical data: In SF last summer a cyclist hit ran a red light, hit a pedestrian who died a month later.. It was not clear that the cyclist was a pure hipster, but the bike appeared to be a fixie. It was very interesting in all of the day of video from the new stations you could see bike after biker running the same light. Mix of commuters and hipsters as best I can tell.

Are Hipsters/Fixies inherently bad? No. My son 14, rides a fixie that we built...and knows how to ride in traffic, following rules. His fixie also has a brake.

the problem is not a specirfic class/subclass of cyclists, but behavior and responsibility and a feeling of entitlement

Cyclist are not entitled to run red lights. It is irresponsible
Cylists are not entitled to ride withoutout brakes.....no matter what your "mad skills" are you do not have the control or the ability to handle many situations...resulting in more dangerous maneuvers.

My observation of actual riders, is that as a current visible genre, many in the hipster/fixie crowd seem to feel entitled to do what they want....and be irresponsible. I see far more red light running, salmoning and just plan dumb behavior form this group (could be the teenage mind in many cases) Also as hipster/fixie is cool...there are many people riding who do not have the "mad skills" that reduce risk for all, but still ride as if they do.

so be as hip and cool and ride the most rad fixie you can..... cool..... but don't take that a entitlement, follow traffic rules and if you are prepared to go down to avoid an accident...get a brake.