Myosmith

That was never my intent. My first post in this thread mentions that I might explore ways to enjoy music in an appropriate manner on some of my rides and that I know of other cyclists who do so. My only problem is with iPod zombies, on wheels or on foot, who use earbuds to completely tune out, becoming an annoyance or hazard to those around them. On open rural highways around here, I love to take in the view, let my mind wander a bit, and could enjoy some music. In heavy downtown traffic in Fargo or Mpls/St.Paul at rush hour my attention is 100% on the road and the other drivers/riders/pedestrians on it. Eyes and ears both allow us to enjoy riding and help keep us safe.

wphamilton

All of this is an opinion which perhaps seems to be common sense, but which has no scientific foundation that I'm aware of. It also seems more than a little dubious. Sorry to be so blunt.

Chris516

+10

Chris516

That would be a viable argument, if they were like tinted windows. But tinted on both sides.

I-Like-To-Bike

Sunglasses might keep the "danger" obsessed cyclist from seeing the black helicopters circling overhead. But if the cyclist isn't listening to music maybe he will hear it to save himself from this threat.

TheHen

Last week in Eugene, OR, a gentleman was cycling home from work. (That doesn't happen often around here.) As he crossed the railroad tracks, he failed to notice the Amtrak Coast Starlight train that was approaching. Needless to say, it was a bad outcome for him. He was wearing earbuds and there was another cyclist present to witness the whole bloody mess.

I'm not saying that his death was caused by aural distraction, but it is just possible enough to keep me from interfering with my ability to hear what is around me. I'm old, slow, cowardly and unlikely to change my mind on this. I do see how people could ride safely with earbuds in place. However, I don't think I am one of those people.

By the way, there were some other factors in this tragedy. The city had recently rebuilt the entire area such that cyclists were expected to ride the sidewalk between the intersection of Alder and Franklin and the spur to the South Bank path where this collision occurred. As he approached the tracks and entered this sidewalk, he was faced with a sharp incline and zero vision down the tracks. To compound matters, on this approach, he would not have been able to see the crossing guards that would have been coming down nor the flashing lights. This was really a death trap set up by the city since any person with limited hearing would have no idea they were about to be clobbered by a train as they approached.

I'm more upset by the substandard infrastructure implementation than by any issue with listening to music. I hope the courts agree when his wife and children sue the city. I also hope they don't "blame the victim" by saying his listening to music (or whatever) was the cause. Who expects a road to cross an active train track with no warning devices or stop signs?

CB HI

You forget to mention that the train no longer whistles it's approach in city limits because of the noise disturbing the residents.

Myosmith

If you have been cycling in the United States for the past decade, during that 10 years the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has recorded more than 7,000 cyclist deaths and nearly a half million serious injuries from collisions with motor vehicles alone. This does not include deaths or injuries not involving motor vehicles. The League of American Bicyclists estimates that these numbers represent less than 30% of the total number of cycling related injuries that require emergency care as they do not reflect injuries resulting from crashes due to road hazards; collisions with other cyclists, pedestrians or fixed objects; dog or other animal attacks or collisions; road rage or other acts of violence against cyclists; accidents during cycling sporting events; or accidents that occur off-road including public parks and trails. Do the math and thats about 1.7 million cycling deaths and injuries over a ten-year period in the United States alone.

Now consider that the 1.7 million figure does not include all of the lesser injuries that don't require emergency treatment or which are not reported as cycling injuries.

I would venture a guess that the majority of people on the Bike Forums have been riding ten years or more. If you have been riding for 30 years, you can triple those numbers to indicate the total number of deaths and injuries that occured during your cycling career.

And yet there is has not been a single case reported of a cyclist killed or injured by a black helicopter, though I'm sure there is a government conspiracy to cover those up

I agree with I-Like-To-Bike in that some people can become absolutely obsessed with risk and safety, but I still find it strange to frequent an Advocacy and Safety forum to tell people who want to discuss legitimate safety issues that they are ridiculous and laughable for expressing their concerns. Take a look at the statistics from legitimate sources and it isn't hard to figure out that there are real dangers facing cyclists. We don't have to be "obsessed" but it would behoves us to be aware of and have due regard for those dangers and to take reasonable steps to reduce the risk. What is ridiculous is to take civil and intelligent comments from others participating in the discussion, exaggerate and distort what was said, and then throw it back in their faces. Disagree if you wish, but not everyone who expresses a different opinion is obsessed, paranoid (your black helicopter reference), or a laughable idiot. Though various opinions have been expressed, I have not seen a single obsessive or paranoid comment.

If you want to talk about helicopters, talk with the flight nurses and paramedics who have transported injured cyclists. I work ground transport on an advanced life support ambulance and I've carried my share. My own daughter once ended up in the ER with a mild concussion from a cycling accident.

njkayaker

You have to explain what special powers you have that allow you to hear quiet things over the music you are listening to.

I-Like-To-Bike

What "quiet things" are so darn important to hear while cycling that stir up BF safety-ninnies to wring their hands in fear of missing these clues?

wphamilton

Ordinary powers, of ordinary people. There is little doubt that our auditory perceptions are based on neural network layers, both for attenuation of unwanted signals and for recognition. In either case there exists a feedback training mechanism for the neural networks. Isn't it obvious that that's what we mean by "paying attention?"

The well known examples I gave earlier, which apply to everyone, were intended to make that clear.

bandit1990

Very tragic story...but if the cyclist in question just turned to look down the tracks, this probably could have been avoided. Again, hearing is just one of the senses. Sight, in this case, might have proven more appropriate.

I-Like-To-Bike

I cannot imagine the scenario you present of a cyclist approaching a railroad crossing that has zero visibility of existing gate guards and flashing lights, as well as zero visibility down the tracks, at least far enough for a pedestrian or bicyclist to see an approaching train.

Any pictures available of this crossing and zero visibility approach?

hagen2456

"...these numbers represent less than 30% of the total number of cycling related injuries that require emergency care". Perhaps, but most of these are, I gather, non-fatal, right? So, I'm not sure "doing the math" the way you do it is right.

Myosmith

The 1.7 million is an estimate of cycling deaths and injuries based on the 10-year US national statistics and the estimate that the League of American Bicyclists made as to the % of under-reporting.

(7,000 deaths + 500,000 injuries) / .30 = 1,690,000 estimated total deaths and injuries requiring emergency care. If that is wrong, feel free to post the formula you believe is correct.

Even if the estimates are off by a significant margin, the point that there are a lot of cyclists killed and injured by a variety of hazards is still valid. These figures still don't include lesser injuries not requiring emergency care.

_____________________________


This thread has run its useful course as far as I'm concerned. I will leave it with this simple summation of my opinion, for what its worth:

A cyclist's safety is best served by using both his/her eyes and ears to identify potential hazards. The amount of distraction that constitutes an acceptable risk will vary with the situation (quiet country road vs. midtown at rushhour). Each person must determine what they consider acceptable risk but nobody has the right to become an unnecessary hazard or nuisance to the rest of the public with which they share the road/path/sidewalk/MUP. Listening to music while riding may be appropriate when it doesn't interfere with the safety of the rider or those around him/her. Tuning out the world by cranking your earbuds to 11 (Spinal Tap reference if you're old enough to remember) on a busy path or street is not a good idea.

The horse is now officially deceased. May the OP forgive us for what we did to his thread. Ride safe everyone

jfowler85

...and if you hear someone coming from within a direction that is out of your field of vision? Surely your peripheral vision does not encompase 360 degrees, or perhaps I missed something during vertebrate physiology. I prefer giving priority to visual inputs, while taking cues from what I hear around me, if I am going at a speed that facilitates it. I concede that at higher speeds rushing wind can sound similar to radial passenger car tread, but it only takes experience to hear the difference and thus roughly be able to know what is happening both behind and in front of you.

Radh

That is an extremely tragic story, TheHen, although I must agree -- many cities do not advocate good safety for bikers and then proceed to blame it on "helmets" or "listening to music." I do hope that ends well.

To everyone else, thank you for your input! I'm not sure whether I'm confident enough to try listening to music as I ride yet, but I did learn quite a bit (especially the one earbud part, genius!). I hope this helped some others with a similar thought.

Chris516

So you choose to think of me as 'danger obsessed'. I would rather be alive as a result of being 'danger obsessed', than dead as a result of being 'danger ignorant'.

I-Like-To-Bike

You hear a vehicle, OMG! So what?
What is a cyclist supposed to do every time they hear a vehicle on the street or road, duck for cover?

njkayaker

There's no reason not to use both.

Silly strawman argument.

What's next for "safety ninnies" (like yourself) is pedal reflectors for riding around during the day!