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Why sharing the road will never work

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Why sharing the road will never work

Old 11-15-12, 03:35 PM
  #1  
1nterceptor
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Why sharing the road will never work

"Itís the system that is at fault. Any system which allows people to behave in a dangerous manner that puts others at risk isnít fit for purpose.

The idea that we can train everybody to never break the rules is ridiculous. Itís just not feasible to expect to change the habits and lives of millions of people by putting up posters or running TV ad campaigns. The road system must be changed to reduce and mitigate bad behaviour."

Read the full article:
https://departmentfortransport.wordpr...ll-never-work/
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Old 11-15-12, 07:12 PM
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Good Lord. He compares "sharing the road" with Josef Stalin and a pedophile.

Ooooh-kay.

Somebody needs to reply to his blog, bring up Hitler, invoke Godwin's Law, and drag him kicking and screaming at least one or two alternate universes closer to our reality.
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Old 11-15-12, 07:31 PM
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Yeah, sharing the road will never work...except for the almost 5 decades that I have been sharing it just fine, right?
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Old 11-15-12, 08:35 PM
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Glad you haven't had any problems sharing the road chipcom. In addition to being lucky, you must know how to handle a bicycle.

That's great - but cycling is a simple activity. It shouldn't require extraordinary courage, any great skill-set, or years of experience, to do safely. Well-designed infrastructure can help to mitigate real and perceived dangers to cyclists which should result in more people cycling.
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Old 11-15-12, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by owenfinn
Glad you haven't had any problems sharing the road chipcom. In addition to being lucky, you must know how to handle a bicycle.

That's great - but cycling is a simple activity. It shouldn't require extraordinary courage, any great skill-set, or years of experience, to do safely. Well-designed infrastructure can help to mitigate real and perceived dangers to cyclists which should result in more people cycling.
Cycling in traffic is not a simple activity, but it does not "require extraordinary courage, any great skill-set, or years of experience", to learn. After all, we Americans expect that most adults can learn to drive a car in traffic, which is not greatly different. Those cyclists who obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles can operate reasonably safely with reasonable efficiency. You advocate that the road system be designed, dumbed down, for use by people who refuse to obey the rules of the road. Since allowing motorists to operate while disobeying the rules of the road would be far too dangerous, you are essentially advocating a separate system for those cyclists who choose to disobey the rules of the road. There are two kinds of difficulties in that. In a practical way, both motorists and cyclists get delayed; in a political way, the competent cyclists who best use bicycle transportation are forced into the facilities and traffic used by the incompetent cyclists.
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Old 11-15-12, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by John Forester
You advocate that the road system be designed, dumbed down, for use by people who refuse to obey the rules of the road.
I didn't say that.

I advocate the road system be designed, more intelligently, for use by everyone.

The whole point of the article is that mistakes will happen. As a cyclist you can take every precaution imaginable but you cannot control what other people do - and when mistakes happen in a 2 ton speeding vehicle people die.
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Old 11-15-12, 10:05 PM
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Some people will be killed riding bicycles. And some will be killed driving in cars. Airplanes will crash and people will die. So really, transportation in general just won't work.
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Old 11-15-12, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Some people will be killed riding bicycles. And some will be killed driving in cars. Airplanes will crash and people will die. So really, transportation in general just won't work.
Similarly, several people a year are killed by toilets. Have fun pooping in a hole.
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Old 11-15-12, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 1nterceptor
"It’s the system that is at fault. Any system which allows people to behave in a dangerous manner that puts others at risk isn’t fit for purpose.

The idea that we can train everybody to never break the rules is ridiculous. It’s just not feasible to expect to change the habits and lives of millions of people by putting up posters or running TV ad campaigns. The road system must be changed to reduce and mitigate bad behaviour."

Read the full article:
https://departmentfortransport.wordpr...ll-never-work/
What you are saying, is subjective to the definition of 'share the road'. If we acquiesce to the definition preferred by motorists'(being beside a cyclist in the same lane), instead of what a cyclist is legally allowed to (and should)do ('as close as practicable', includes 'take the lane'), then a cyclist will undoubtedly lose every time.
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Old 11-15-12, 11:35 PM
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Ok his point is made, and I think likely true that there will always be issues of non-compliance with laws. But he offers no better solution, because somebody will always break the rule, drivers, cyclists, walkers, joggers, women with baby carriages. Ever ride on MUPS? They can be more dangerous than sharing the road. Trying to systematically eliminate all potential for human misbehavior is foolhardy at best, stupid or scary at worst.

Otherwise known as give a fool a typewriter and a forum, and he will prove himself a fool.
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Old 11-16-12, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Some people will be killed riding bicycles. And some will be killed driving in cars. Airplanes will crash and people will die. So really, transportation in general just won't work.
Funny, and yet stupid.
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Old 11-16-12, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris516
What you are saying, is subjective to the definition of 'share the road'. If we acquiesce to the definition preferred by motorists'(being beside a cyclist in the same lane), instead of what a cyclist is legally allowed to (and should)do ('as close as practicable', includes 'take the lane'), then a cyclist will undoubtedly lose every time.
Sure. Except for the British paper showing that the closer to the curb you ride, the wider is the clearing motorists will give you when passing.
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Old 11-16-12, 07:33 AM
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That's how Cycle routes should look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmG9...feature=relmfu
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Old 11-16-12, 08:05 AM
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No system involving human beings will ever be perfect. We can through appropriate advocacy make it better. There will always be a percentage of people who can screw up any system. You can't cure stupid.

Last edited by Myosmith; 11-16-12 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 11-16-12, 08:07 AM
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I can definitely see how I should expect people to build me an entire, separate, infrastructure for the .5% of people who ride bicycles. This should definitely be a priority over things like our failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, failing healthcare system, etc.

@ chipcom - eggsactly. If you're pulling out comparisons to the Politburo and British pedophiles, you might want to rethink your approach.
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Old 11-16-12, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I can definitely see how I should expect people to build me an entire, separate, infrastructure for the .5% of people who ride bicycles. This should definitely be a priority over things like our failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, failing healthcare system, etc.
A lot of government policy is to incentivise people to do things that are good for them and the country. Investing in cycling infrastructure will significantly increase the percentage of people who ride and percentage of trips taken by bicycle at the expense of trips by car. Not only is this good for people individually, it has far reaching positive side-effects. It will lead to healthier people and less strain on the healthcare system, less dependence on fossil fuels, less congestion, less pollution, less prime real estate wasted for parking, less money required for auto-centric transportation infrastructure, and cities being nicer places to live.

As an aside, no amount of money is going to fix the failing schools. The district my taxes go to already spends $18k per student per year and has a graduation rate well below 50%. That is more than most of the private schools. It is a cultural problem, not a financial resources problem.
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Old 11-16-12, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 1nterceptor
"It’s the system that is at fault. Any system which allows people to behave in a dangerous manner that puts others at risk isn’t fit for purpose.

The idea that we can train everybody to never break the rules is ridiculous. It’s just not feasible to expect to change the habits and lives of millions of people by putting up posters or running TV ad campaigns. The road system must be changed to reduce and mitigate bad behaviour."
So all drivers should be put in automatic self-driving cars? They should not allowed to drive on their own? Ever?

What an idiot.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 11-16-12, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by owenfinn
That's great - but cycling is a simple activity. It shouldn't require extraordinary courage, any great skill-set, or years of experience, to do safely. Well-designed infrastructure can help to mitigate real and perceived dangers to cyclists which should result in more people cycling.
Why not? Driving requires all that and more (formal licensing) and you don't see any shortage of drivers.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 11-16-12, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by hagen2456
Sure. Except for the British paper showing that the closer to the curb you ride, the wider is the clearing motorists will give you when passing.
Interesting, I haven't seen it. Do you have a source/citation for the lazy?
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Old 11-16-12, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris516
What you are saying, is subjective to the definition of 'share the road'. If we acquiesce to the definition preferred by motorists'(being beside a cyclist in the same lane), instead of what a cyclist is legally allowed to (and should)do ('as close as practicable', includes 'take the lane'), then a cyclist will undoubtedly lose every time.
Yes.
This. Repeatedly. Until it sinks in.
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Old 11-16-12, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hagen2456
Sure. Except for the British paper showing that the closer to the curb you ride, the wider is the clearing motorists will give you when passing.
Assuming they see you, hiding over there in the debris dotted gutter.
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Old 11-16-12, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertFrapples
A lot of government policy is to incentivise people to do things that are good for them and the country. Investing in cycling infrastructure will significantly increase the percentage of people who ride and percentage of trips taken by bicycle at the expense of trips by car. Not only is this good for people individually, it has far reaching positive side-effects. It will lead to healthier people and less strain on the healthcare system, less dependence on fossil fuels, less congestion, less pollution, less prime real estate wasted for parking, less money required for auto-centric transportation infrastructure, and cities being nicer places to live.

As an aside, no amount of money is going to fix the failing schools. The district my taxes go to already spends $18k per student per year and has a graduation rate well below 50%. That is more than most of the private schools. It is a cultural problem, not a financial resources problem.
Horse crap on nearly every point:

Yes, we can and do incentivize behavior, but you are assuming that the incentive is enough to encourage people to commute on a regular basis and rely on their bikes. Hooey. We incentivize public transit in the cities, and we still have tons of autos. The reason is very simple...the convenience of owning a car for most people is a greater incentive than having another transit option and people are willing to pay for it. We are a very small minority, and expecting most people to bike 12 miles to work and back is absurd. They don't want to do it even if its safe. Expecting most people to want to go shopping by bike is absurd. I wonder how many who make posts like this have real responsibility and families; it seems like a bunch of people who want to put their values on others.

If you want to incentivize other forms of transit, of which biking is one relatively small piece of the pie, the answer is tax policy and fuel costs. You'll have a huge fight with the treamster's union on your hands and greater consumer goods costs. If you think anyone is charging up that hill right now, you're kidding yourself. Would I support higher fuel taxes? Yes - because I don't drive at all and my wife drives a car that gets 50mpg. I always support taxes I won't have to pay If you think separated lanes on all roads is going to make people want to ride to work by bike, you are kidding yourself. The truth is that transportation cycling is really only possible for a very small percentage of people - ones who live and work in cities.

As for the schools comment, it's a cultural, structural/organizational AND funding problem. It's also one of will. The biggest problem in my area is that federal funding encourages faking tests, attendance records and forcing through kids who have no business being graduated. We deal with the issue as we want it to be, not as it is. It's also an issue that's closely tied to the lack of opportunity in blue collar employment sectors...ditch diggers were laid off and automated. Trash trucks that used to have 6 guys per truck and which went out twice a week now have 3 guys a truck and go out once a week. We all went yay, lower taxes - until the three guys without jobs were on the dole.
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Old 11-16-12, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hagen2456
Sure. Except for the British paper showing that the closer to the curb you ride, the wider is the clearing motorists will give you when passing.
That is subjective to the region. Because, Motorists' around here, that are not also cyclists', do not care about cyclists. It is a 'me first' disease with motorists'. Even though there is a 3-Foot passing law in my state, there are plenty of violators that hate cyclists'.
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Old 11-16-12, 12:34 PM
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Funny, when I take the lane, there are no cars passing me in my lane.
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Old 11-16-12, 12:57 PM
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In the united states sharing the road will always be part of the equation, becuase there is just too much road to deal with.

Bicycle relationships with roads will include, simple sharing, sharrow signage (which i still maintain is dumb), painted bike lanes, road diets, segregated facilities. The degree of infrastrucure will be directly proportionate to the population/business/traffic density of an area.

Chipcom is 10000% right when he talks about convenience. Other than the core of cyclist there are now, growth will only occur when it is more convenient to bike rather than drive.

what makes it more convenient?
Cost, what is the tipping point on gas prices to push people over? Do cars need a required "Cost meter" that shows what the latest trip cost in $ and wear and tear?

Safe place to put bike, racks, bike parking with attendants

Feeling safe on ride, which is very different for a beginner compated to even cyclist with a bit of experience

Hard to park if you take a car. If it is hard to park, and there is a safe place for bikes that is incentive.

time....understanding that taking a bike is often quicker or no less time than taking a car.

infrastructure

All of this points to a multifaceted solutions, probably requireing goverment regulations/support

*Increased gas taxes
*increased law enforcement for bikes and cars both
*Education
*Infrastruture
*Reducing required parking for business and increasing required bike parking
*making business districts provide attended bike parking
*Requiring business to charge employees for parking
*Financial rewards for commuting to work


the chances of this happening en mass is very low, it will be local governments moving forward in key areas (San Jose as an example is doing some road diets, add infrstructure in the down town areas and considering bikes in any road maintenance)

What each of us can do is ride, commute, do errands and help others to do the same
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