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Any help/ideas on an "almost" accident? (long story)

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Any help/ideas on an "almost" accident? (long story)

Old 03-25-13, 05:31 PM
  #51  
wphamilton
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
..
Drivers and pedestrians should always check for vehicles that may come from any possible direction especially from a possible legal direction which it seems very likely in this case. If it is not possible to check and confirm, then stop until you are sure.
This most important of all. I have a section where I sometimes ride sidewalk the wrong direction, which is why I can't be harsh on OP. But his exact situation is what gives me the willies doing it: a car travelling the the same direction turning left as I cross the intersection. A good driver will check and see the biker on the far left going the wrong way, and anticipate him darting out in front of his left turn, but those drivers are rare in my opinion and I don't expect it from anyone. I don't go if there's any traffic that might turn.
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Old 03-25-13, 07:08 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
They also would not ticket the driver with any driving offense, since I was riding on the sidewalk I was a pedestrian and not subject to any traffic or bicycle laws. They noted that he admitted to stomping on my rim and causing damage, but refused to charge him without charging me with the harassment charge.
Even in cases where the driver is 100% in the wrong the police usually can't ticket them unless they witness it themselves. I guess if the guy was dumb enough to admit to breaking the law then maybe they could. As far as the assault part of it, I think it's the same thing. When they don't witness the assault than it's your word against the other guy. I saw the police at my old apartment complex tell someone the same thing (the police were called after a fight broke out in the parking lot.) They said if she wanted to press charges they could proceed but if the other woman wanted to press charges they might have to charge her as well. The reasoning was that they didn't witness the fight so they couldn't determine who was telling the truth (about the other person starting it.)

I sympathize with you, when the adrenaline is flowing it's hard not to go all cave man. But I've almost almost regretted it when I get into a verbal altercation with a driver that could escalate into a physical fight.

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Old 03-26-13, 08:48 AM
  #53  
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I have the perfect solution for an almost accident....

Almost do something.
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Old 03-26-13, 09:35 AM
  #54  
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What I didn't get is how fast the OP was going? He notes slow, but how slow?

Bottom line is riding on the sidewalk at any thing above a walking speed is going to create dangerous situations, no matter whether going with or against traffic. Drivers and cyclists expect "traffic" on s side walk to be at slow speed. Right or wrong this is built into the way the mind works.

IMHO Driver was jerk for laughing, then OP got his mad on and did nothing constructive, sounding like a bigger jerk. No win situation.
Possible different outcome if OP had kept cool, complain to manager about how he driver did not present well for the "brand" and that would be something to escalate to corporate. Right now corporate hears "crazy biker that cops threatened with harassement charge". I under stand getting mad, but in generally is has never served me well.
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Old 03-26-13, 02:58 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
What I didn't get is how fast the OP was going? He notes slow, but how slow?

Bottom line is riding on the sidewalk at any thing above a walking speed is going to create dangerous situations, no matter whether going with or against traffic. Drivers and cyclists expect "traffic" on s side walk to be at slow speed. Right or wrong this is built into the way the mind works.

IMHO Driver was jerk for laughing, then OP got his mad on and did nothing constructive, sounding like a bigger jerk. No win situation.
Possible different outcome if OP had kept cool, complain to manager about how he driver did not present well for the "brand" and that would be something to escalate to corporate. Right now corporate hears "crazy biker that cops threatened with harassement charge". I under stand getting mad, but in generally is has never served me well.

Oregon law, and some city ordinances too, have worked to define guidelines for riding on sidewalks. What the law here essentially says, is that people riding on the sidewalk have the same rights and duties as pedestrians. The only specific reference to speed of travel on the sidewalk has to do with approaching and entering a street to cross the street, which shall be at the speed of an ordinary walk. By Oregon law, if the way on the sidewalk was clear...of pedestrians and hazards...for a higher rate of speed than an ordinary walk, people biking are allowed to travel at a speed faster than an ordinary walk, as long as it doesn't constitute careless manner that endangers or would be likely to endanger any person or property.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.410

By Oregon law then, not necessarily the same as that of the OP's state, if the OP was doing on the sidewalk, what a pedestrian should be doing when approaching and preparing to cross a driveway...slowing and looking for approaching motor vehicles, even though people driving them are supposed to yield to pedestrians...he should have been granted that yield by the person driving that chose to use the driveway. Unless of course, the person driving had arrived at the driveway significantly before the OP on his bike.

Last edited by wsbob; 03-26-13 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-26-13, 04:16 PM
  #56  
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If riding on the sidewalk is allowed where the OP lives, then it's allowed. Period. You're also allowed to yell at people. If you had refused to leave the business, the owner/employee is still not allowed to hurt you or your property, unless there is some very odd exception in this state.

In my opinion, the OP is 100% the victim here. His yelling is irrelevant. The cops don't get to play 'who was the bigger jerk' - they only get to play one game, and they're supposed to know the rules. If I were you, I'd get a lawyer and hit the business, the driver, the person who wrecked your rim, and the police department. Of course, economics come into play here.
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Old 03-26-13, 04:28 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
Oregon law, and some city ordinances too, have worked to define guidelines for riding on sidewalks. What the law here essentially says, is that people riding on the sidewalk have the same rights and duties as pedestrians. The only specific reference to speed of travel on the sidewalk has to do with approaching and entering a street to cross the street, which shall be at the speed of an ordinary walk. By Oregon law, if the way on the sidewalk was clear...of pedestrians and hazards...for a higher rate of speed than an ordinary walk, people biking are allowed to travel at a speed faster than an ordinary walk, as long as it doesn't constitute careless manner that endangers or would be likely to endanger any person or property.

By Oregon law then, not necessarily the same as that of the OP's state, if the OP was doing on the sidewalk, what a pedestrian should be doing when approaching and preparing to cross a driveway...slowing and looking for approaching motor vehicles, even though people driving them are supposed to yield to pedestrians...he should have been granted that yield by the person driving that chose to use the driveway. Unless of course, the person driving had arrived at the driveway significantly before the OP on his bike.
Not to pick nits, but what the law states and what you state are two different things. The law talks about crossing streets, not a driveway. The Oregon law makes sense and is pretty much common sense for crossing a street, but doesn't pertain to this situation, even if it happened in Oregon.

Last edited by Bahnzo; 03-26-13 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 03-26-13, 06:33 PM
  #58  
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You've had some sensible advice above (see a lawyer, small claims, talk to head office), but I've got another suggestion.

You know where this asshat parks his car. Just sayin'.

(But check for CCTV first...)
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Old 03-26-13, 06:44 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
Not to pick nits, but what the law states and what you state are two different things. The law talks about crossing streets, not a driveway. The Oregon law makes sense and is pretty much common sense for crossing a street, but doesn't pertain to this situation, even if it happened in Oregon.

Oregon's law which I posted the link to in an earlier post, alludes to due care, with respect to the duties and responsibilities of pedestrians when using the sidewalk, which also applies to people riding bikes on the sidewalk(Oregon has a stand alone law defining 'due care'). Interpretations of what 'due care' means may differ, but it seem fair to say that it covers using caution by slowing and looking for approaching vehicles, when crossing driveways as well as streets. The law is more specific about how sidewalk users should handle street crossings, but due care is required in both cases.

In Portland a couple years ago, there was a collision on the east side involving a guy riding a bike on the sidewalk, and a police forensics officer entering the street from a driveway. I'm vague on the details, recollecting from memory (bikeportland did a story on the collision...should come up in a search.), the guy on the bike collided with the front of the police vehicle. Who was found to be a fault? I won't say without reviewing the story. It may be worth your while to seek that story out for some perspective on your own collision.

Last edited by wsbob; 03-26-13 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 03-27-13, 02:38 AM
  #60  
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Ya right,consult with an attorney,take legal advice.
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Old 03-27-13, 10:41 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I imagine what the store manager's story might be.
Oh, I imagine, too. Doesn't mean he's likely to win a legal case.

Maybe nothing comes of it either way in a civil court but I think it's borrowing trouble to pursue it legally. If it's a corporate chain that can give OP some leverage if he approaches it right, as someone willing and able to put a public word of mouth hurt on them, but don't even hint at courts and lawyers.
It very much depends on a lot of context we don't have. In this litigious world in which we live, people are terrified of being sued, and will often just settle, even if they think they have a decent shot at it. It really depends on the context whether or not the OP should consider legal options. Whether he uses that means, I'd still make life as difficult for them as possible.
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Old 03-29-13, 09:51 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
. . . Bottom line is riding on the sidewalk at any thing above a walking speed is going to create dangerous situations, no matter whether going with or against traffic. Drivers and cyclists expect "traffic" on s side walk to be at slow speed. Right or wrong this is built into the way the mind works . . .
+1
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Old 03-29-13, 03:41 PM
  #63  
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The guy pushes the OP, and destroys his rim, and half the posters here think the OP is somehow the harasser? Wow. I don't care what the laws say, there is a big difference between swearing, and bodily/property damage. The police totally shafted the OP. Harassment? Ridiculous. The police should have come out REGARDLESS, simply to diffuse the situation - in such a heated situation, you have no idea what could happen. People have pulled guns for far less. Instead they basically make the OP choose whether he wants protection at the cost of being charged?

Obviously, we don't know the whole story, or both sides of the story, but if you take the OP's words at face value, it sounds like he got screwed twice.

EDIT: BTW, I've witnessed similar situations where the police take the merchant's side ... only to observe the police chumming with the merchant/owner after the victim had left. The officers know most of these businesses, and their employees, and the shady ones will take sides before any victim even opens their mouth.

EDIT: Also, OP ... don't forget all 911 phone calls are public record. It would be pretty easy to find out if the police shafted you, and gave you false info (about charging with harassment). Get a copy, and ask for a free interview with a lawyer - play him the tape.

Last edited by lineinthewater; 03-29-13 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 04-01-13, 08:44 AM
  #64  
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I'm not saying the cyclist is at fault here, as it seems fault could be equally spread around, but this is the main reason I will never ride on a sidewalk, no matter what the law says. Drivers just don't expect anyone moving faster than 2-4mph. It's much safer to stay in the road.
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Old 04-02-13, 09:25 PM
  #65  
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I ride almost everyday all year round,,I ride where ever i think it is safe for me. Almost every ride there is a close call and that is what goes with bike riding. If you have to make a post like you made,,,in my opinion you need to be riding off road where there are no cars. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-03-13, 10:55 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
I'm not saying the cyclist is at fault here, as it seems fault could be equally spread around, but this is the main reason I will never ride on a sidewalk, no matter what the law says. Drivers just don't expect anyone moving faster than 2-4mph. It's much safer to stay in the road.
You can make it safe, you can make it dangerous -- your choice. You can go as fast as you want between driveways if there is no pedestrian traffic. And some sidewalks have very few driveways and are empty. I take advantage of such where the road is filled with hostile and impatient rush hour drivers and there is no bike lane. What is critical, is scan for everything when approaching a driveway, be prepared to stop and yield to everything. Also, cross intersections at pedestrian speed. If these practices are followed about the only risk is an out of control car jumping over the curb and hitting you, or the rider loses control and falls into the street.

The statistics quoted that purport to prove sidewalk cycling far more dangerous that road cycling are totally meaningless. The typical sidewalk rider is not at all the same as the typical road rider. Of all the riders killed here in Austin the last year or two none were on the sidewalk -- not that that proves anything.

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Old 04-03-13, 08:14 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
I'm not saying the cyclist is at fault here, as it seems fault could be equally spread around, but this is the main reason I will never ride on a sidewalk, no matter what the law says. Drivers just don't expect anyone moving faster than 2-4mph. It's much safer to stay in the road.
Another reply, from another reader who didn't bother to read the whole post. There was a reason I was on the sidewalk, and it was because it was a *much* safer alternative. I hate when people can't be bothered to read/comprehend and just post, "Don't ride on the sidewalk".

I ride all over as well, and I make a point to never ride on the sidewalk, but in this one isolated incident, it was the right choice and I'll do it again (in fact I did a few days ago).
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Old 04-03-13, 08:43 PM
  #68  
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So, where are you at? Fix that bike yet? I'm sure by now the posters here piss you off more than the original confrontation. Really, this stuff happens everyday, somewhere.
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Old 04-03-13, 11:35 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by curbtender View Post
So, where are you at? Fix that bike yet? I'm sure by now the posters here piss you off more than the original confrontation. Really, this stuff happens everyday, somewhere.
Fixed, and I'm going to courthouse tomorrow for a copy of the police report and then filing a small claims to get my repair paid for.

I've been on the net for almost as long as it's existed. Posters don't piss me off so much as the general public. If you don't say it in 140 chars now, then it's ignored, and yet they still consider themselves informed enough to reply.
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Old 04-04-13, 12:56 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
I'm not saying the cyclist is at fault here, as it seems fault could be equally spread around, but this is the main reason I will never ride on a sidewalk, no matter what the law says. Drivers just don't expect anyone moving faster than 2-4mph. It's much safer to stay in the road.
Originally Posted by Don in Austin View Post
You can make it safe, you can make it dangerous -- your choice. You can go as fast as you want between driveways if there is no pedestrian traffic. And some sidewalks have very few driveways and are empty. I take advantage of such where the road is filled with hostile and impatient rush hour drivers and there is no bike lane. What is critical, is scan for everything when approaching a driveway, be prepared to stop and yield to everything. Also, cross intersections at pedestrian speed. If these practices are followed about the only risk is an out of control car jumping over the curb and hitting you, or the rider loses control and falls into the street. The statistics quoted that purport to prove sidewalk cycling far more dangerous that road cycling are totally meaningless. The typical sidewalk rider is not at all the same as the typical road rider. Of all the riders killed here in Austin the last year or two none were on the sidewalk -- not that that proves anything. Don in Austin

Don in Austin...with some exceptions by individual city ordinances, your description about riding on the sidewalk, is somewhat how riding on the sidewalk is permitted by Oregon law. I think Oregon law actually says something closer to, riders can ride as fast as is safe, given conditions, between driveways and streets, if there's no pedestrian traffic. It takes some thinking, which of course, some people aren't inclined to do much of, to figure out what speed is appropriate for a given sidewalk.


Bahnzo...good luck helping the judge to understand that the person having stomped on your wheel, should rightfully pay for the damage he caused. From what you've described, he had no call whatsoever to inflict any damage to your property.
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