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New Australian study into night visibility misconceptions

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New Australian study into night visibility misconceptions

Old 04-11-13, 04:32 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
If you're doing 25 mph downhill in the dark on your bike, how much reaction time do you think you have, how much distance do you think you'd need to ID a pedestrian dressed all in black, walking along the side of the road? Think you'd have enough time to not plow into them...?

If you hit them, is it the fault of the walker wearing dark, or the cyclist running them down?

The pedestrian may share some responsibility for such a collision. I think the general rule of thumb, is that motor vehicle and other vehicle road users are obliged to grant pedestrians the right of way their relative vulnerability gives them, but pedestrians have their own obligations with regard to road use; they have to use due care in entering a dangerous or potentially dangerous situation.
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Old 04-11-13, 04:50 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Things aren't strange -- ped still has a good chance of getting hit because they are doing nothing to mitigate walking ninja in the dark.

Cars are specifically required to run lights at some time period stated in law around sunset or dusk. Motorcyclists in the USA have to run daytime running lights. Many cyclists are legally required to run lights when it's dark out.

Maybe lights should be mandatory on bikes, and while we're at it, require daytime use for conspicuity like motorcyclists and many cars.

If a cyclist is riding in the dark without lights where nighttime use of lights is required of cyclists and gets hit by a driver with their car, who is more at fault?
The cyclist.

My point was that if the ped is hit by a motorist, the motorist is likely relieved of fault as the ped was dressed in black. If a cyclist hits the ped (dressed in black), the cyclist will likely be found at fault. If a motorist hits a cyclist, whether the cyclist was lit or dark, the motorist again will likely be relieved of fault, as the cyclist will be "blamed" for riding in the street, and the motorist had an "accident."
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Old 04-11-13, 05:46 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Did they test rear pointed lights or only front?

from abstract: "the bicycle had a light mounted on the handlebars which was either static, flashing or off."
I am serious about this q. I wanted to find what lights were used in the study as that is a huge factor and all I could determine is that there was a handlebar mounted light.
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Old 04-12-13, 12:19 PM
  #29  
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Isn't it odd how many people have seen cyclists riding without lights. Invisibility isn't what it used to be.
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Old 04-12-13, 01:46 PM
  #30  
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Would anyone here ride after dark without lights?
__________________
I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
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Old 04-12-13, 01:52 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
If you're doing 25 mph downhill in the dark on your bike, how much reaction time do you think you have, how much distance do you think you'd need to ID a pedestrian dressed all in black, walking along the side of the road? Think you'd have enough time to not plow into them...?

If you hit them, is it the fault of the walker wearing dark, or the cyclist running them down?
Are they in the street or on the sidewalk?
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Old 04-12-13, 02:20 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Would anyone here ride after dark without lights?
no, but i have and did it as if i was invisible. slow and inefficient, but possible to do safely
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Old 04-12-13, 03:34 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
no, but i have and did it as if i was invisible. slow and inefficient, but possible to do safely
I used to do it too... back in North Park in San Diego when I lived in that area... residential streets, slow, almost non-existent traffic, and the ability to see car headlights and hear them approach long before they saw you, made it all work.

There was just something about a midnight ride on a warm night...
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Old 04-12-13, 04:12 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post

You also don't seem to realize that "young" drivers (20-24 year-olds) are involved in many more accidents (about 3.5 times as many) as 65-74 year-olds are.

https://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s1114.pdf
When compared by miles driven, seniors are significantly worse drivers than teens. Accidents by teens usually have 3 factors: Speeding, nighttime , and alcohol. Senior accidents generally cluster around the 4pm time, do not involve speeding, and do not involve alcohol.
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Old 04-12-13, 05:17 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by WickedThump View Post
When compared by miles driven, seniors are significantly worse drivers than teens.
Do you have a citation for that?

In particular, I'd want to know which seniors are studied -- in my experience, most 65 year olds are good drivers. Perhaps their reaction times and vision and such have declined over the years, but their driving is far more careful and more than makes up for it when compared to teenagers who just started driving.

Now, when the seniors get a lot older -- 80, 90, etc. -- then the number of problems increase.

But in any event, I'd like to see your citation.
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Old 04-12-13, 05:24 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by WickedThump View Post
When compared by miles driven, seniors are significantly worse drivers than teens. Accidents by teens usually have 3 factors: Speeding, nighttime , and alcohol. Senior accidents generally cluster around the 4pm time, do not involve speeding, and do not involve alcohol.
Are you sure about that?

https://theenergycollective.com/james...ll-it-continue

"Teens" (new drivers) probably don't drive that many miles.

Anyway, it's more than 3 factors.

You missed the basic ones: inexperience and immaturity (developmental).

And it's not clear (especially without any data) what you mean by "seniors".


Keep in mind that I was responding to the nutty notion that people older than 60 years-old were dangerous (and people 59 years-old were not). It's that weird arbitrary cut-off that I was criticizing.

If a "senior" (some one older than 60 years-old), or anybody, can't drive safely, they should be disqualified by some sort of test. Not just by simple age (certainly not 60!).

Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
We don't know what the study means by "young" or "elderly" but it would seem that the peformance of 59 year-olds is very close to the performance of 60 year-olds.
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
If you had suggested that everybody qualify due to some sort of test, you might have a reasonable idea. But disqualifying people by simple age doesn't make sense.

Last edited by njkayaker; 04-12-13 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 04-12-13, 05:36 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
So, if cyclists are not very visible to cars why do cyclists have to change their behavior and not drivers?
Because I can't change the behaviour of all car drivers, but I can change MY behaviour...

Last edited by imi; 04-12-13 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 04-12-13, 06:38 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
Another article on this topic from the same authors

Wood, J. M., Tyrrell, R. A., Marszalek, R., Lacherez, P., Carberry, T., & Chu, B. S. (March 01, 2012). Using reflective clothing to enhance the conspicuity of bicyclists at night. Accident Analysis & Prevention, 45, 726-730.

This article shows that young drivers are able to recognize a cyclist before the elderly (who shouldn't be driving IMO past 60).
Seriously? I don't know where or when you arrived at this bias, but I hope you are not using this paper to bolster your opinion. The authors used only 12 "elderly" participants without good control of the other many variables - hardly enough to represent any "group". Even so, being able to measure decrements in performance is one thing, thinking that they are sole significant factors in the probability of real world incidents is very naive. I would suggest that you keep your stereotypical profiling to yourself in the future.

I will say that the paper is very good in its study of the major premise - comparing the types of conspicuity enhancers.
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Old 04-12-13, 08:48 PM
  #39  
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When compared by miles driven, seniors are significantly worse drivers than teens.
That's just garbage. For example, I had at least 10 motor vehicle accidents between the age of 18 and 28. Seriously injured myself and others. From 28 - 57, I have had only 1 accident - where nobody was hurt. My father was still driving when he was 85 and and the only accident he had was one when he was about 70. What's your agenda? Did you have an accident with an old person while you were in the wrong but you're so narcisistic you can't admit it? How old are you? How many accidents have you been involved in?
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Old 04-13-13, 09:06 AM
  #40  
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Drivers over 60 should be required to take a vision test every year, and be able to pass the DMV test every two years, to be allowed to drive IMO
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Old 04-13-13, 09:11 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
If a "senior" (some one older than 60 years-old), or anybody, can't drive safely, they should be disqualified by some sort of test. Not just by simple age (certainly not 60!).
I agree 100%. I didn't explain well enough my thoughts in the previous post.
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Old 04-13-13, 09:54 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
I didn't explain well enough my thoughts in the previous post.
Which post? You posted more than one without explanation making the age of 60 a Rubicon for testing not required for those less than that age.
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Old 04-13-13, 12:00 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by imi View Post
Because I can't change the behaviour of all car drivers, but I can change MY behaviour...
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! (I have no idea why this basic notion eludes some people.)
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Old 04-14-13, 04:31 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Maybe lights should be mandatory on bikes, and while we're at it, require daytime use for conspicuity like motorcyclists and many cars.

If a cyclist is riding in the dark without lights where nighttime use of lights is required of cyclists and gets hit by a driver with their car, who is more at fault?
Around here bicycle lights (front and rear) are now required by law - not that they give a huge amount of tickets for them, but they have issued warnings. I have to say they are very practical, even towards other cyclists and pedestrians.

Only that now we need another campaign how to point your bike lights, as even the cheap single power led models are starting to become powerful enough to blind people

I also agree that moving pedal reflectors, safety vest reflectors etc. make it much easier to identify a cyclist and judge the distance. It's the difference between "there's something blinking there.." and "oh, there's a cyclist there" - more information is always better. You need at least two points, somewhat apart, to judge how fast you're closing towards the object.

Last edited by proileri; 04-14-13 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 04-14-13, 04:36 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
I am serious about this q. I wanted to find what lights were used in the study as that is a huge factor and all I could determine is that there was a handlebar mounted light.
Not really.... Well, they did test with both front and rear lights, but only reported the results from the cyclist perspective. They only talked about what the cyclist thought when the lights were on -- not what the drivers saw. I guess that will come in another article.
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Old 04-14-13, 04:57 PM
  #46  
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In this study, the use "50 mm-wide silver retroreflective strips which were mounted with Velcro[SUP][/SUP] around the ankles and knees" as part of the test and it showed a huge improvement in viability as others noted above. I'm sure one could make their own knee "band" but I've never seen these for sale. The only thing I've ever seen for knees that was reflective were pants and they usually only have a small strip of reflective material. Has anyone ever seen reflective bands (or similar) made for knees for sale? I couldn't find any.
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Old 04-14-13, 06:54 PM
  #47  
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New Australian study into night visibility misconceptions

^^ here ya go
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000KG6JB8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1365987163&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=SL75

Just wrap 'em below your knee (never tried that myself, but should work)

Last edited by imi; 04-14-13 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 04-14-13, 07:56 PM
  #48  
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Thanks imi! They look good.
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Old 04-14-13, 09:02 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
Drivers over 60 should be required to take a vision test every year, and be able to pass the DMV test every two years, to be allowed to drive IMO
Drivers under 25 should be required to take an attitude test every 3 months and have mandatory fitment of devices to their cars that prevent them from being started if the driver has above 0.00% alcohol in their blood. Also the car to be fitted with a device that scrambles cell phone transmissions.
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Old 04-15-13, 05:32 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by imi View Post
Just wrap 'em below your knee (never tried that myself, but should work)
It makes sense, as the main pattern of car headlights are required to be pointed a bit below horizontal. When driving, it's easier to see reflectors in the legs than in the upper body/helmet. Plus there's the recognizable up-and-down pedaling movement.
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