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Warning an overtaking car not to overtake

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Warning an overtaking car not to overtake

Old 05-09-13, 05:40 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by imi View Post
Anyone got a picture of this "hold back" signal?
Unless I'm missing something, this is not used in England or Europe.

Similarly, the bent downward left arm to signal a right turn is not used over here.
A right turn is signaled by the left arm bent upward and pointing slightly back to the right. Needed because motorists don't have right ams long enough to reach across the car and out the passenger window. Hand signals predate blinker lights. I assume you have a similar hand signal for a left turn using the right hand in the UK.

Here's a link to the various hand signals, all of which are (or were) the same for cars. In the UK you'd do these with the right hand, everything being mirrored.
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Old 05-09-13, 05:46 PM
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I only try to signal overtaking drivers if I can see oncoming traffic and also prepare for a quick dive to the right in case the hint is ignored.

The practice makes sense to me because some drivers seem to underestimate bike speeds and/or over estimate their vehicle's acceleration and handling.
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Old 05-09-13, 05:58 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by the_tool_man View Post
Hi all:

I've been riding forever, and commuting for a few years now, almost entirely on suburban and rural two-lane roads. In my experience, nearly every car that overtakes me gives me plenty of room by crossing the centerline of the road (sometimes entirely). I prefer this to being buzzed, but it presents a different problem. My local terrain is typically a series of small hills. So, I frequently find myself approaching the top of a hill as a car is overtaking me from behind. I used to cringe at the thought of someone passing me on the wrong side of the road as they crest a hill, only to collide head-on with a car coming the opposite direction. Of course, most motorists know better than to pass there (especially considering the ever-present double-yellow line), but it only takes one, right?

Then one day, I was driving in my car somewhere and overtook a cyclist on a hill. I had no intention of passing him until I knew it was clear, but he didn't know that. He extended his left arm out and rearward with his palm open toward me, fingers down and splayed. Whether it was this signal, his posture or other nonverbal, I immediately understood he wanted me to slow and follow him until we crested the hill. This took maybe 10-15 seconds, at which point we could both see there was no oncoming traffic. He dropped his arm, and I was on my way.

I've started doing this "wait to pass" gesture, myself. I have to say it seems to work pretty well. So far, I haven't had anyone pass me while doing this. I've also found that my position on the bike is a bit higher than most cars, giving me advanced warning of oncoming traffic that I can communicate to the car driver while he's still "behind" the hill. I'm sure the guy I saw and I aren't the only ones who do this. But I've never seen it taught anywhere. So I thought I'd share my experience.

Good idea or not?
I do that kind of thing all the time when visibility is poor. I'll give a signal similar to what you've described to warn a driver there's oncoming traffic, then when I can see it's clear I'll motion for them to pass.

Sometimes I'll give a "not now" signal to a driver and they blow past anyway but it's pretty rare even when I'm going slowly up a hill. Usually when I've motioned a driver behind that it's clear for them to pass they give me a flash of the 4-ways as a thankyou when they pull in.

It's the kind of thing I'd put down to just being considerate to other road users. They respect your right to be there, you help them get past as soon as it's safe.
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Old 05-09-13, 06:55 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I assume you have a similar hand signal for a left turn using the right hand in the UK.

Here's a link to the various hand signals, all of which are (or were) the same for cars. In the UK you'd do these with the right hand, everything being mirrored.
Thanks

No, in the UK and Europe you signal left with a straight left arm, right with a straight right arm.

The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/

I'm still unclear as to the US "hold back" signal. Didn't find it in the wiki link.

Last edited by imi; 05-09-13 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 05-09-13, 07:10 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by imi View Post
Thanks

No, in the UK and Europe you signal left with a straight left arm, right with a straight right arm.

The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/

I'm still unclear as to the US "hold back" signal. Didn't find it in the wiki link.
Look for US stop signal... that is essentially what it is... Hand down, but out enough to be visible and fingers outstretched as if to say "stop." Imagine if you put your hand in front of you to signal stop to someone approaching you directly in front... A hand in their face so to speak... now take that and put it out and down with your left hand.
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Old 05-09-13, 07:26 PM
  #31  
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Warning an overtaking car not to overtake

^^ gotchya, thanks genec.

Over here that would surely be interpreted either as "please hold back" or as a sloppy left turn signal. Either way it would hopefully prevent the car from overtaking. However it is neither an official, nor common, hand gesture.
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Old 05-09-13, 07:42 PM
  #32  
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the top two right hand illustrations crudely show the wave em through and he hold em back hand signals.
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Old 05-09-13, 08:32 PM
  #33  
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Used that for the ride to school with my daughter the other day; worked perfectly. Maybe I should have used it a bit MORE, may not have gotten BUZZED three times....
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Old 05-09-13, 09:37 PM
  #34  
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When I did a lot of riding on hilly country roads, we would routinely wave drivers over hills if we could see that there was nothing coming. We probably would have held them back, too, but I don't remember anyone trying to pass when they shouldn't have.

Where I live now is very flat and the issue hasn't really come up. But I've never done this in towns or on curves.
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Old 05-10-13, 06:49 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by the_tool_man View Post
I've started doing this "wait to pass" gesture, myself.
[...]
Good idea or not?
Sorry, but you don't get to direct traffic.
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Old 05-10-13, 09:46 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
Sorry, but you don't get to direct traffic.
Sorry, but you seem confused.
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Old 05-10-13, 10:02 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
Sorry, but you don't get to direct traffic.
If the goal is for everyone to share the road safely, then directing traffic when it's called for (dangerous passing situations) is the order of the day. We all do it to some extent or another, such as when yielding, and waving someone across our path.

It isn't about directing traffic as much as communication to improve safety for everyone.
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Old 05-10-13, 10:20 AM
  #38  
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Think a bit more broadly than just accommodating road share traffic. Think: Liability For Your Actions. When you start to direct traffic by giving signals you are assuming liability for what happens next to the other vehicle. Motion the other vehicle to pass and something bad happens, like death, injury or property damage and you will be in the legal mess too. To say nothing of the emotions involved.

A cyclist is probably pretty safe preventing an accident by trying to stop another vehicle from passing when there is a clear hazard. But, as this thread has pointed out there are no clear signaling standards so consider what happens if your gesture is misinterpreted.

No matter what vehicle, bike, car, truck, whatever, the safe thing is to operate as safely as you can and leave judgments that affect the other vehicle to its' operator. Part of that is following the Slow Vehicle Rules in your area. Here, if more than 5 vehicles are held up you must pull over and let them by.
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Old 05-10-13, 10:40 AM
  #39  
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sometimes it work, and sometimes not. Have had drivers almost collide head on because the tool passing me isn't paying attention.
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Old 05-10-13, 10:47 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
Think a bit more broadly than just accommodating road share traffic. Think: Liability For Your Actions......
This is a thought we see all the time on the forum, and in the USA where getting sued is easier than slipping on ice, it can be said about just about anything we do.

Imagine your driving, and come to a corner, and yield to a child wanting cross (as per law in NYS). Then the car behind you swings around and hits the child as he passes your car. (a bus driver's worst fear). Are you liable? Did you entice the child into a trap?. Who knows.

It's sad that it's so easy to be sued in the USA, but fortunately it isn't actually as common as it seems. If we let fear of suit to rule our lives we'll go nuts and civil society won't exist anymore. Do what seems right at the moment, live well, contribute to civility, and let the lawsuit chips fall where they may.
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Old 05-10-13, 10:59 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
Think: Liability For Your Actions. When you start to direct traffic by giving signals you are assuming liability for what happens next to the other vehicle. Motion the other vehicle to pass and something bad happens, like death, injury or property damage and you will be in the legal mess too.
It's not impossible, but the risk in most US jurisdictions is probably pretty small. Do you have cases to cite?


A cyclist is probably pretty safe preventing an accident by trying to stop another vehicle from passing when there is a clear hazard. But, as this thread has pointed out there are no clear signaling standards so consider what happens if your gesture is misinterpreted.
Any gesture you make when riding a bike in traffic might be misinterpreted (I'll bet most drivers in California wouldn't immediately understand, e.g., the bent-left-arm right turn signal, which is perfectly legal). That's not a good reason for not making them.

Again, do you have citations that support your assertion?

No matter what vehicle, bike, car, truck, whatever, the safe thing is to operate as safely as you can and leave judgments that affect the other vehicle to its' operator.
Signaling a following road user to wait/hold, and/or signaling that you are comfortable with being passed, does not usurp said user's judgment or relieve him or her of the responsibility for safe and legal operation. It's simply a form of communication that helps in sharing the roads.

Part of that is following the Slow Vehicle Rules in your area.
That sentence demonstrates that you have, at best, a local or provincial understanding of traffic law as it applies to cylclists. Where do you live?
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Old 05-10-13, 12:05 PM
  #42  
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I don't wave people around under most circumstances. This is for two reasons, first is I don't know if they can pull it off because some people could screw up any simple thing. I have heard of someone getting dragged into court because of waving someone around. The second reason is that a large percentage of people that I have wanted to wave around in the past were waiting for me to pass their turn/driveway.
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Old 05-10-13, 01:07 PM
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I'm not in the business of providing gratuitous legal advice or doing other people's legal research. The best thing is to seek legal advice on Contributory Negligence.

By "directing traffic " you have interjected yourself into a potential contributory negligence situation. Certainly primary responsibility is with the other vehicle operator. But to the extent the other operator relied on your direction you may be found partially liable.
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Old 05-10-13, 02:26 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by imi View Post
The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/
honestly i think it would be interpreted like that if a cyclist did it in the US as well...

I'm not often on narrow roads without good line of sight but i often use the "pass now" signal. In general i'll use hand signals, head turns, eye contact, etc as much as possible

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Old 05-10-13, 02:40 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
I'm not in the business of providing gratuitous legal advice or doing other people's legal research.
Uh-huh. Does that mean you don't have any citations?

Yes, everyone vaguely familiar with American tort law can imagine a situation in which hand signals could lead to contributory negligence claims. It has probably even happened, more than once. That doesn't mean there's a serious risk that outweighs the benefits of signaling.

If you believe there is such a risk, cite cases.
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Old 05-10-13, 07:20 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I don't wave people around under most circumstances. This is for two reasons, first is I don't know if they can pull it off because some people could screw up any simple thing. I have heard of someone getting dragged into court because of waving someone around. The second reason is that a large percentage of people that I have wanted to wave around in the past were waiting for me to pass their turn/driveway.
I have pulled off the road into a driveway on climbs in order to allow motorists to pass only to find that it was their driveway I pulled into. Typically, we both laugh as we wave and I go on my way.

I don't usually wave people around either, but I will temporarily move into gutter-bunny position to let them know that I don't see any conflict ahead.
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Old 05-10-13, 07:34 PM
  #47  
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I will readily at least attempt to direct traffic when necessary whether it be hand signals, taking the lane or both. Of course how authoritative I am depends much on the size and speed of the approaching vehicle.
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Old 05-11-13, 05:55 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
If the goal is for everyone to share the road safely, then directing traffic when it's called for (dangerous passing situations) is the order of the day. We all do it to some extent or another, such as when yielding, and waving someone across our path.
We already have right-of-way rules that specify what to do to "share the road safely". Nobody needs to be waved across your path if they already have the right of way. Conversely, if they don't have the right of way, waving someone across your path is as likely to make the situation less safe as it is to make it more safe.

I see it all the time, on my bike, as a ped, and in my car. Some dumbass, for whatever reason, decides that the normal rules of right of way don't suit their needs, and starts waving their hands around, trying to tell me what they want me to do. They are almost always wrong. And then they get mad at me because I refuse to let them "do me a favor".
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Old 05-11-13, 06:04 AM
  #49  
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the majority of those of us who use this method report no such handicap, and payouts from the consideration.

use of hand signals as a cyclist is a boon. I use a lot of pointing and non-traditional hand signals; despite their non-standard nature and the increase in my legal culpability (oh, i'm so afeard) , are near-uniformly well received by pedestrians and motorists alike.
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Old 05-11-13, 09:29 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
the majority of those of us who use this method report no such handicap, and payouts from the consideration.

use of hand signals as a cyclist is a boon. I use a lot of pointing and non-traditional hand signals; despite their non-standard nature and the increase in my legal culpability (oh, i'm so afeard) , are near-uniformly well received by pedestrians and motorists alike.
Yup. Bek and I are in full agreement here.

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