Warning an overtaking car not to overtake
05-09-13, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by imi
Anyone got a picture of this "hold back" signal?
Unless I'm missing something, this is not used in England or Europe.
Similarly, the bent downward left arm to signal a right turn is not used over here.
Unless I'm missing something, this is not used in England or Europe.
Similarly, the bent downward left arm to signal a right turn is not used over here.
Here's a link to the various hand signals, all of which are (or were) the same for cars. In the UK you'd do these with the right hand, everything being mirrored.
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05-09-13, 05:46 PM
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I only try to signal overtaking drivers if I can see oncoming traffic and also prepare for a quick dive to the right in case the hint is ignored.
The practice makes sense to me because some drivers seem to underestimate bike speeds and/or over estimate their vehicle's acceleration and handling.
The practice makes sense to me because some drivers seem to underestimate bike speeds and/or over estimate their vehicle's acceleration and handling.
05-09-13, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by the_tool_man
Hi all:
I've been riding forever, and commuting for a few years now, almost entirely on suburban and rural two-lane roads. In my experience, nearly every car that overtakes me gives me plenty of room by crossing the centerline of the road (sometimes entirely). I prefer this to being buzzed, but it presents a different problem. My local terrain is typically a series of small hills. So, I frequently find myself approaching the top of a hill as a car is overtaking me from behind. I used to cringe at the thought of someone passing me on the wrong side of the road as they crest a hill, only to collide head-on with a car coming the opposite direction. Of course, most motorists know better than to pass there (especially considering the ever-present double-yellow line), but it only takes one, right?
Then one day, I was driving in my car somewhere and overtook a cyclist on a hill. I had no intention of passing him until I knew it was clear, but he didn't know that. He extended his left arm out and rearward with his palm open toward me, fingers down and splayed. Whether it was this signal, his posture or other nonverbal, I immediately understood he wanted me to slow and follow him until we crested the hill. This took maybe 10-15 seconds, at which point we could both see there was no oncoming traffic. He dropped his arm, and I was on my way.
I've started doing this "wait to pass" gesture, myself. I have to say it seems to work pretty well. So far, I haven't had anyone pass me while doing this. I've also found that my position on the bike is a bit higher than most cars, giving me advanced warning of oncoming traffic that I can communicate to the car driver while he's still "behind" the hill. I'm sure the guy I saw and I aren't the only ones who do this. But I've never seen it taught anywhere. So I thought I'd share my experience.
Good idea or not?
I've been riding forever, and commuting for a few years now, almost entirely on suburban and rural two-lane roads. In my experience, nearly every car that overtakes me gives me plenty of room by crossing the centerline of the road (sometimes entirely). I prefer this to being buzzed, but it presents a different problem. My local terrain is typically a series of small hills. So, I frequently find myself approaching the top of a hill as a car is overtaking me from behind. I used to cringe at the thought of someone passing me on the wrong side of the road as they crest a hill, only to collide head-on with a car coming the opposite direction. Of course, most motorists know better than to pass there (especially considering the ever-present double-yellow line), but it only takes one, right?
Then one day, I was driving in my car somewhere and overtook a cyclist on a hill. I had no intention of passing him until I knew it was clear, but he didn't know that. He extended his left arm out and rearward with his palm open toward me, fingers down and splayed. Whether it was this signal, his posture or other nonverbal, I immediately understood he wanted me to slow and follow him until we crested the hill. This took maybe 10-15 seconds, at which point we could both see there was no oncoming traffic. He dropped his arm, and I was on my way.
I've started doing this "wait to pass" gesture, myself. I have to say it seems to work pretty well. So far, I haven't had anyone pass me while doing this. I've also found that my position on the bike is a bit higher than most cars, giving me advanced warning of oncoming traffic that I can communicate to the car driver while he's still "behind" the hill. I'm sure the guy I saw and I aren't the only ones who do this. But I've never seen it taught anywhere. So I thought I'd share my experience.
Good idea or not?
Sometimes I'll give a "not now" signal to a driver and they blow past anyway but it's pretty rare even when I'm going slowly up a hill. Usually when I've motioned a driver behind that it's clear for them to pass they give me a flash of the 4-ways as a thankyou when they pull in.
It's the kind of thing I'd put down to just being considerate to other road users. They respect your right to be there, you help them get past as soon as it's safe.
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05-09-13, 06:55 PM
#29
aka Timi
Originally Posted by FBinNY
I assume you have a similar hand signal for a left turn using the right hand in the UK.
Here's a link to the various hand signals, all of which are (or were) the same for cars. In the UK you'd do these with the right hand, everything being mirrored.
Here's a link to the various hand signals, all of which are (or were) the same for cars. In the UK you'd do these with the right hand, everything being mirrored.
No, in the UK and Europe you signal left with a straight left arm, right with a straight right arm.
The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/
I'm still unclear as to the US "hold back" signal. Didn't find it in the wiki link.
Last edited by imi; 05-09-13 at 06:58 PM.
05-09-13, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by imi
Thanks
No, in the UK and Europe you signal left with a straight left arm, right with a straight right arm.
The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/
I'm still unclear as to the US "hold back" signal. Didn't find it in the wiki link.
No, in the UK and Europe you signal left with a straight left arm, right with a straight right arm.
The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/
I'm still unclear as to the US "hold back" signal. Didn't find it in the wiki link.
05-09-13, 07:26 PM
#31
aka Timi
Warning an overtaking car not to overtake
^^ gotchya, thanks genec.
Over here that would surely be interpreted either as "please hold back" or as a sloppy left turn signal. Either way it would hopefully prevent the car from overtaking. However it is neither an official, nor common, hand gesture.
Over here that would surely be interpreted either as "please hold back" or as a sloppy left turn signal. Either way it would hopefully prevent the car from overtaking. However it is neither an official, nor common, hand gesture.
05-09-13, 07:42 PM
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the top two right hand illustrations crudely show the wave em through and he hold em back hand signals.
05-09-13, 08:32 PM
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Used that for the ride to school with my daughter the other day; worked perfectly. Maybe I should have used it a bit MORE, may not have gotten BUZZED three times....
05-09-13, 09:37 PM
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When I did a lot of riding on hilly country roads, we would routinely wave drivers over hills if we could see that there was nothing coming. We probably would have held them back, too, but I don't remember anyone trying to pass when they shouldn't have.
Where I live now is very flat and the issue hasn't really come up. But I've never done this in towns or on curves.
Where I live now is very flat and the issue hasn't really come up. But I've never done this in towns or on curves.
05-10-13, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by the_tool_man
I've started doing this "wait to pass" gesture, myself.
[...]
Good idea or not?
[...]
Good idea or not?
05-10-13, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by corvuscorvax
Sorry, but you don't get to direct traffic.
05-10-13, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by corvuscorvax
Sorry, but you don't get to direct traffic.
It isn't about directing traffic as much as communication to improve safety for everyone.
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05-10-13, 10:20 AM
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Think a bit more broadly than just accommodating road share traffic. Think: Liability For Your Actions. When you start to direct traffic by giving signals you are assuming liability for what happens next to the other vehicle. Motion the other vehicle to pass and something bad happens, like death, injury or property damage and you will be in the legal mess too. To say nothing of the emotions involved.
A cyclist is probably pretty safe preventing an accident by trying to stop another vehicle from passing when there is a clear hazard. But, as this thread has pointed out there are no clear signaling standards so consider what happens if your gesture is misinterpreted.
No matter what vehicle, bike, car, truck, whatever, the safe thing is to operate as safely as you can and leave judgments that affect the other vehicle to its' operator. Part of that is following the Slow Vehicle Rules in your area. Here, if more than 5 vehicles are held up you must pull over and let them by.
A cyclist is probably pretty safe preventing an accident by trying to stop another vehicle from passing when there is a clear hazard. But, as this thread has pointed out there are no clear signaling standards so consider what happens if your gesture is misinterpreted.
No matter what vehicle, bike, car, truck, whatever, the safe thing is to operate as safely as you can and leave judgments that affect the other vehicle to its' operator. Part of that is following the Slow Vehicle Rules in your area. Here, if more than 5 vehicles are held up you must pull over and let them by.
05-10-13, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl
Think a bit more broadly than just accommodating road share traffic. Think: Liability For Your Actions......
Imagine your driving, and come to a corner, and yield to a child wanting cross (as per law in NYS). Then the car behind you swings around and hits the child as he passes your car. (a bus driver's worst fear). Are you liable? Did you entice the child into a trap?. Who knows.
It's sad that it's so easy to be sued in the USA, but fortunately it isn't actually as common as it seems. If we let fear of suit to rule our lives we'll go nuts and civil society won't exist anymore. Do what seems right at the moment, live well, contribute to civility, and let the lawsuit chips fall where they may.
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05-10-13, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl
Think: Liability For Your Actions. When you start to direct traffic by giving signals you are assuming liability for what happens next to the other vehicle. Motion the other vehicle to pass and something bad happens, like death, injury or property damage and you will be in the legal mess too.
A cyclist is probably pretty safe preventing an accident by trying to stop another vehicle from passing when there is a clear hazard. But, as this thread has pointed out there are no clear signaling standards so consider what happens if your gesture is misinterpreted.
Again, do you have citations that support your assertion?
No matter what vehicle, bike, car, truck, whatever, the safe thing is to operate as safely as you can and leave judgments that affect the other vehicle to its' operator.
Part of that is following the Slow Vehicle Rules in your area.
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05-10-13, 12:05 PM
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I don't wave people around under most circumstances. This is for two reasons, first is I don't know if they can pull it off because some people could screw up any simple thing. I have heard of someone getting dragged into court because of waving someone around. The second reason is that a large percentage of people that I have wanted to wave around in the past were waiting for me to pass their turn/driveway.
05-10-13, 01:07 PM
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I'm not in the business of providing gratuitous legal advice or doing other people's legal research. The best thing is to seek legal advice on Contributory Negligence.
By "directing traffic " you have interjected yourself into a potential contributory negligence situation. Certainly primary responsibility is with the other vehicle operator. But to the extent the other operator relied on your direction you may be found partially liable.
By "directing traffic " you have interjected yourself into a potential contributory negligence situation. Certainly primary responsibility is with the other vehicle operator. But to the extent the other operator relied on your direction you may be found partially liable.
05-10-13, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by imi
The bent arm turn signal is totally unknown and would be interpreted as a wave :/
I'm not often on narrow roads without good line of sight but i often use the "pass now" signal. In general i'll use hand signals, head turns, eye contact, etc as much as possible
Last edited by frantik; 05-10-13 at 02:30 PM.
05-10-13, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl
I'm not in the business of providing gratuitous legal advice or doing other people's legal research.
Yes, everyone vaguely familiar with American tort law can imagine a situation in which hand signals could lead to contributory negligence claims. It has probably even happened, more than once. That doesn't mean there's a serious risk that outweighs the benefits of signaling.
If you believe there is such a risk, cite cases.
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~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities
"What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."
~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities
05-10-13, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
I don't wave people around under most circumstances. This is for two reasons, first is I don't know if they can pull it off because some people could screw up any simple thing. I have heard of someone getting dragged into court because of waving someone around. The second reason is that a large percentage of people that I have wanted to wave around in the past were waiting for me to pass their turn/driveway.
I don't usually wave people around either, but I will temporarily move into gutter-bunny position to let them know that I don't see any conflict ahead.
05-10-13, 07:34 PM
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I will readily at least attempt to direct traffic when necessary whether it be hand signals, taking the lane or both. Of course how authoritative I am depends much on the size and speed of the approaching vehicle.
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05-11-13, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
If the goal is for everyone to share the road safely, then directing traffic when it's called for (dangerous passing situations) is the order of the day. We all do it to some extent or another, such as when yielding, and waving someone across our path.
I see it all the time, on my bike, as a ped, and in my car. Some dumbass, for whatever reason, decides that the normal rules of right of way don't suit their needs, and starts waving their hands around, trying to tell me what they want me to do. They are almost always wrong. And then they get mad at me because I refuse to let them "do me a favor".
05-11-13, 06:04 AM
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the majority of those of us who use this method report no such handicap, and payouts from the consideration.
use of hand signals as a cyclist is a boon. I use a lot of pointing and non-traditional hand signals; despite their non-standard nature and the increase in my legal culpability (oh, i'm so afeard) , are near-uniformly well received by pedestrians and motorists alike.
use of hand signals as a cyclist is a boon. I use a lot of pointing and non-traditional hand signals; despite their non-standard nature and the increase in my legal culpability (oh, i'm so afeard) , are near-uniformly well received by pedestrians and motorists alike.
05-11-13, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
the majority of those of us who use this method report no such handicap, and payouts from the consideration.
use of hand signals as a cyclist is a boon. I use a lot of pointing and non-traditional hand signals; despite their non-standard nature and the increase in my legal culpability (oh, i'm so afeard) , are near-uniformly well received by pedestrians and motorists alike.
use of hand signals as a cyclist is a boon. I use a lot of pointing and non-traditional hand signals; despite their non-standard nature and the increase in my legal culpability (oh, i'm so afeard) , are near-uniformly well received by pedestrians and motorists alike.
"So, sue me!"
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~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities
"What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."
~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities
