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Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

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Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

Old 05-22-13, 08:45 PM
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caotropheus
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Why the war between drivers and cyclists?

Check this out

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22614569

Road taxes for cyclists?

"The "war" between cyclists and motorists was played out in Toronto, where Mayor Rob Ford ordered the removal of bike lanes" - Really?
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Old 05-22-13, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by caotropheus View Post
Check this out

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22614569

Road taxes for cyclists?

"The "war" between cyclists and motorists was played out in Toronto, where Mayor Rob Ford ordered the removal of bike lanes" - Really?
Why the war-

Just yesterday, I was on my way home from a doctors' appointment. At one point while I was 'taking the lane' and a motorist in an SUV gave me enough room when passing. When he proceeded back into the lane I was in, he suddenly started rubbing the edge of the raised sidewalk(parallel to the road) with his SUV. I thought he was going to rollover. Some people may chalk that up to coincidence. I see it as an indirect example of his hostility towards cyclists. By rubbing the edge of the raised sidewalk with his vehicle, after he had passed me.
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Old 05-22-13, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
Why the war-

Just yesterday, I was on my way home from a doctors' appointment. At one point while I was 'taking the lane' and a motorist in an SUV gave me enough room when passing. When he proceeded back into the lane I was in, he suddenly started rubbing the edge of the raised sidewalk(parallel to the road) with his SUV. I thought he was going to rollover. Some people may chalk that up to coincidence. I see it as an indirect example of his hostility towards cyclists. By rubbing the edge of the raised sidewalk with his vehicle, after he had passed me.
Why do you think he'd risk crashing, or damaging his rims or tires just to spite you. If he wanted to spite you, the driver didn't have to risk anything, he could simply have passed you close, and or pinched you in as he merged back to the right.

Odds are that the driver simply was somewhat less skilled, and misjudged his lane position as he merged back to the right.

Despite a noisy and idiotic minority of both drivers and cyclists, there is no war. The vast majority get along fine, and are courteous and respectful of each other, even here in New York.

I'm not saying that there isn't some drivers who might hate cyclists, but I suspect it's simply because we're trespassing on "their" roads. But these same "road owners" treat other drivers just as badly, and if you want to see really rude driving, sit in the front of the bus and see what bus drivers go through every day.
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Old 05-23-13, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Why do you think he'd risk crashing, or damaging his rims or tires just to spite you. If he wanted to spite you, the driver didn't have to risk anything, he could simply have passed you close, and or pinched you in as he merged back to the right.

Odds are that the driver simply was somewhat less skilled, and misjudged his lane position as he merged back to the right.

Despite a noisy and idiotic minority of both drivers and cyclists, there is no war. The vast majority get along fine, and are courteous and respectful of each other, even here in New York.

I'm not saying that there isn't some drivers who might hate cyclists, but I suspect it's simply because we're trespassing on "their" roads. But these same "road owners" treat other drivers just as badly, and if you want to see really rude driving, sit in the front of the bus and see what bus drivers go through every day.
Most drivers, do not suddenly 'rub' the curb. So, Even though he paid attention when passing, once he got back in the lane, all attentiveness went out the window.

I have been on a bus before, seeing how bad people drive. I was even on a bus that was rear-ended by some moron.

I do consider it a 'war', because of the number of close passes, the number of people telling me to get off the road.
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Old 05-23-13, 08:09 AM
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This other BBC video:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12330181

The van driver is really, really in the wrong yet comes out of the van in full violence mode.

I think it's because the audible warning that cyclists have is to yell, but people have a visceral reaction to being yelled at which triggers the thought that they're being attacked, and they react violently. I don't know whether there's anything to be done about that - cyclists are going to yell, it's all most of us have, and unfortunately people are probably going to take it as a personal attack.
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Old 05-23-13, 12:52 PM
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I think the whole "war" thing is a bit overplayed, but there's conflict for a few different reasons. The biggest, in my opinion, is that many motorists simply have no experience with cycling and don't understand why cyclists behave the way they do. I've had conversations with friends and coworkers that will tell me, "I don't mind bikes, but I hate when cyclists do _____". Often, I wind up explaining that it's something I do, and explaining why it is that I do it. Usually, they say, "oh, I didn't realize that". I think if they'd spent some time in the saddle, it wouldn't be so necessary for them to have it communicated to them, but when you haven't ridden, it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of the guy on the bike.

At least in the States, I think there's very little of the opposite. Most cyclists are also drivers - I know what's irritating, what I can do to mitigate irritation for drivers, and how to operate as efficiently as possible for myself and a driver I'm interacting with.
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Old 05-23-13, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandonub View Post
I think the whole "war" thing is a bit overplayed, but there's conflict for a few different reasons. The biggest, in my opinion, is that many motorists simply have no experience with cycling and don't understand why cyclists behave the way they do. I've had conversations with friends and coworkers that will tell me, "I don't mind bikes, but I hate when cyclists do _____". Often, I wind up explaining that it's something I do, and explaining why it is that I do it. Usually, they say, "oh, I didn't realize that". I think if they'd spent some time in the saddle, it wouldn't be so necessary for them to have it communicated to them, but when you haven't ridden, it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of the guy on the bike.

At least in the States, I think there's very little of the opposite. Most cyclists are also drivers - I know what's irritating, what I can do to mitigate irritation for drivers, and how to operate as efficiently as possible for myself and a driver I'm interacting with.
I noticed you are only a short bike ride from my locale.

I only partially agree with you. I agree that, those who don't ride a bike, don't understand. At the same time, in the metro region we(you and I) live in, the mentality is to get somewhere as fast as possible. Any delay in travelling, by individuals seemingly 'less human' for not travelling by motorized, is perceived here, as an abridgment of the motorized public's travelling rights.

Also, The state says to ride 'as close as practicable to the right hand side of the road'. Motorists' that don't bike, never think that is a judgment call on the part of the cyclist, not the motorist. Also, There are plenty of motorists' in the region, who still don't know(and/or care) about the 2010 3ft. passing law.

So yes, I do see it as a 'war'. Not of bombs, bullets n' tanks. But of respect for law, and respect for the non-motorized public.
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Old 05-23-13, 10:10 PM
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In the mind of a certain percentage of motorists - the war is most certainly real and they consider themselves to be activists on the right side of that war and feel fully justified in their criminal actions of harassment and violence against cyclists.

I am not saying that is all motorists, but there is no question that it is some of them. A war does not require 100% participation, heck you can have a war be called a "World War" with less then half of the population participating.

Neither am I so naive to believe that there are not cyclists who are belligerents actively involved in deliberate actions intended to spite motorists on the other side as well. Most cyclists, however, are getting the short end of the stick in "the war".

There is at least one person in this thread who has stated here and else-where that "There is no War" and it is all in our heads. Just because you haven't seen "the war" or have been under enemy fire yourself does not mean "the war" does not exist or that it won't come to you some day when you happen to cross paths with one of the active combatants on the other side.

Wars don't need to be fought with bombs or guns, heck not long ago in relative time frame they were fought with clubs and stone axes and motorists are much better armed then those guys with their 2+ ton heavy fast moving weapons which are like a M-1 tank vs. a rifle man when facing a cyclist who has only a U-lock on his end (modern club) to reference another thread where the same claims of "no war, its all in your mind" were although not in those exact words clearly communicated by the same individual who apparently has yet to see combat.

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Old 05-23-13, 10:54 PM
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Exhibit A: twitter.com/MotoristBlather
It's pretty shocking what people say about this stuff.

PS. Don't let this discourage you from riding tomorrow.
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Old 05-23-13, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jjamesstrk View Post
Exhibit A: twitter.com/MotoristBlather
It's pretty shocking what people say about this stuff.

PS. Don't let this discourage you from riding tomorrow.
But when these idiots actually hit a cyclist, their tweets can be used against them. So tweet on fools.
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Old 05-24-13, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
But when these idiots actually hit a cyclist, their tweets can be used against them. So tweet on fools.
+10
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Old 05-24-13, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jjamesstrk View Post
Exhibit A: twitter.com/MotoristBlather
It's pretty shocking what people say about this stuff.

PS. Don't let this discourage you from riding tomorrow.
I have been following their dribble, and I am not phased(depressed) by what they are saying. I definitely will continue to ride.
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Old 05-24-13, 02:39 PM
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Really strange war.

I've had at least as many problems with motorists trying to be too nice.

Staying well back of me in a left turn lane (where the light will never change until they close up).

Not taking their turn at a 4 way stop and confusing everyone.

Waiving me through where I have poor sightlines for other oncoming traffic (but would have good sightlines it they had just kept going as they should have).

And a few where motorists were quite helpful. A lift when I had a serious mechanical problem.
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Old 05-24-13, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
Why the war-

Just yesterday, I was on my way home from a doctors' appointment. At one point while I was 'taking the lane' and a motorist in an SUV gave me enough room when passing. When he proceeded back into the lane I was in, he suddenly started rubbing the edge of the raised sidewalk(parallel to the road) with his SUV. I thought he was going to rollover. Some people may chalk that up to coincidence. I see it as an indirect example of his hostility towards cyclists. By rubbing the edge of the raised sidewalk with his vehicle, after he had passed me.
Why, almost every time I ride, I have drivers accelerate while passing me. This is clearly indicative of a deep rooted hatred of cyclists and a desire to intimidate me.

</sarcasm>. Seriously, I generally go upwards of a thousand miles between notable bad-driver encounters.
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Old 05-24-13, 03:20 PM
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there is no war. There are a few bad actors out there. I definitely have encountered fewer problematic drivers in the last few years than I did in the past. I think we are getting down to the point where the only people that cause problems are people with diagnosable personality disorders which fortunately is a small portion of the population.

And to say that cyclists have to change to get better treatment from that group is just Stockholm syndrome.
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Old 05-24-13, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I definitely have encountered fewer problematic drivers in the last few years than I did in the past. I think we are getting down to the point where the only people that cause problems are people with diagnosable personality disorders which fortunately is a small portion of the population.
And to say that cyclists have to change to get better treatment from that group is just Stockholm syndrome.
I agree completely. Motorists are becoming accustomed to sharing the road.
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Old 05-24-13, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
I agree completely. Motorists are becoming accustomed to sharing the road.
Yup.
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Old 05-24-13, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandonub View Post
I think the whole "war" thing is a bit overplayed...
I have something camo colored on the front end of every bike I own. My main commuter has dropped bars with camo bar tape and top tube pad. Every time I sling my leg over that thing I am reminded that I am going to war. This is how I feel. Not that someone out there is literally trying to kill me with a car, but SO MANY motorists out there are simply dangerous. Then, there are the hoodlums who will try to take my stuff and/or give me a good thrashing for fun. Maybe kill me.

So when I start out on my commute I have a greater sense that I might not be coming back in one piece, or at all. Not impending doom per se, but a sense that what I am doing is inherently dangerous and I had better act like I am at war and stay alert to everything.
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Old 05-24-13, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Odds are that the driver simply was somewhat less skilled, and misjudged his lane position as he merged back to the right.
One of the nicer neighborhoods I ride through has a bike lane far right with super-wide lanes for two cars going each way. I always chuckle nervously when a pickup truck or SUV (always one of the two) passes me safely, then merges the passenger side wheels over into the bike lane to run over two or three bike symbols just ahead of me. If that's not purposeful hostile behavior I sure don't know what is.
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Old 05-24-13, 10:39 PM
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Why the "war" rhetoric? Answer: Hysteria and drama queens on wheels.
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Old 05-24-13, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Why the "war" rhetoric? Answer: Hysteria and drama queens on wheels.
You'd have to be a cyclist to understand.
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Old 05-24-13, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
One of the nicer neighborhoods I ride through has a bike lane far right with super-wide lanes for two cars going each way. I always chuckle nervously when a pickup truck or SUV (always one of the two) passes me safely, then merges the passenger side wheels over into the bike lane to run over two or three bike symbols just ahead of me. If that's not purposeful hostile behavior I sure don't know what is.
It is what you think it is, of course. Jerks who think it's fun to intimidate you and might actually hurt you if they thought they could get away with it. All of us who have cycled for a long time in America have experienced it. Some of us don't have to put up with it much in our current environments.

Some US places still have way too many of those creeps, and local cultures that allow them to continue their antisocial behavior.

Other places have advanced to the point that drivers who act that way are very rare. In lots of American towns, that sort of acting out would earn you an expensive trip to court, these days.

Keep working on NOLA. It ought to be bike/ped heaven in a number of neighborhoods. And making life less convenient for motorists would make the streets safer in several ways.
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Old 05-25-13, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
Really strange war.

I've had at least as many problems with motorists trying to be too nice.

Staying well back of me in a left turn lane (where the light will never change until they close up).

Not taking their turn at a 4 way stop and confusing everyone.

Waiving me through where I have poor sightlines for other oncoming traffic (but would have good sightlines it they had just kept going as they should have).

And a few where motorists were quite helpful. A lift when I had a serious mechanical problem.
Yes, It is strange. The 'nice motorists'' are the ones' to watch out for. Because, They are the ones that, aren't expected to be stupid. Just like the guy who gave me more than 3ft. a couple days ago, then he side-swiped the curb.

Originally Posted by degnaw View Post
Why, almost every time I ride, I have drivers accelerate while passing me. This is clearly indicative of a deep rooted hatred of cyclists and a desire to intimidate me.

</sarcasm>. Seriously, I generally go upwards of a thousand miles between notable bad-driver encounters.
Do you see a motorist accelerate at a great speed, when a motorist is going at a speed that is close to the posted speed limit? Sure there are the 'road hogs' who do that sort of thing. But I have noticed more than once, when a motorized vehicle is traveling the speed limit, as opposed to a cyclist, the motorist will more than likely wait to pass. But when it is a cyclist, it is a whole different dynamic. Motorists' don't want to wait.

Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
there is no war. There are a few bad actors out there. I definitely have encountered fewer problematic drivers in the last few years than I did in the past. I think we are getting down to the point where the only people that cause problems are people with diagnosable personality disorders which fortunately is a small portion of the population.

And to say that cyclists have to change to get better treatment from that group is just Stockholm syndrome.
That is subjective to the region you live in(Portland compared to the DC-Metro region). Yes, You are right about those with personality disorders.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
I agree completely. Motorists are becoming accustomed to sharing the road.
The problem is still the pervasive attitude, in a given region. In the DC-Metro region, when it comes to road users, cyclists are definitely in the minority. Because there is still a pervasive attitude of needing something/needing something done, by yesterday. That attitude is transferred into a person's 'transportation' attitude. So, If a person is a cyclist and/or pedestrian, they are considered 'less than human' in this region. Because it is all about getting things done ASAP, Post Haste, PDQ
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Old 05-25-13, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
Do you see a motorist accelerate at a great speed, when a motorist is going at a speed that is close to the posted speed limit? Sure there are the 'road hogs' who do that sort of thing. But I have noticed more than once, when a motorized vehicle is traveling the speed limit, as opposed to a cyclist, the motorist will more than likely wait to pass. But when it is a cyclist, it is a whole different dynamic. Motorists' don't want to wait.
I'm just saying that almost anything can be interpreted as a sign of aggression when it's probably either incompetence or normal behavior.
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Old 05-25-13, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
You'd have to be a cyclist to understand.
A hysterical drama queen cyclist to agree.
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