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PDX cycling report recommends removal of bike lanes

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PDX cycling report recommends removal of bike lanes

Old 06-09-13, 07:41 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
you're going to have to think that through a little more thoroughly.

mandatory bikelane law.

what - you think the motoring public has no opinion at all when they see cyclists in florida riding outside of the bikelanes for debris or where turns are authorized?

I wonder why sparewheel thinks bikelanes AND 'bikes may use full travel lane' are going to be needed in HIS portland?

you think mandatory use laws don't negatively affect public perception of cycling? ask spare wheel about that.
I've read the law and thought it through and practice my interpretation every day on the roads.

You know the use of the word Mandatory (and I made the mistake of using it myself) is misleading. Many cyclist think you need to stay in that lane, period. And that was the whole point of contention when they passed the revised law.

Fact is, that is just wrong. I go outside the bike lane quite a bit, especially if there's a turn and I'm too fast for traffic, I take the lane, I've even done this with cops around.

You guys are just freakin' out over nothing at all.
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Old 06-09-13, 07:53 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by john gault View Post
. Many cyclist think you need to stay in that lane, period.......................

You guys are just freakin' out over nothing at all.
It's not just the cyclists that think that.

Are you talking about the guy in portland and his histrionics about a city lunch club and their vision for a more bikeable portland? you don't have to 'freak out' that as cities approach double digit ridership, bike infrastructure is going to lead to bans of bicyclists from the rest of the roads.
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Old 06-09-13, 09:00 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by john gault View Post
Like I said, I feel immune to all this and Florida is a great state to ride in, so yes I can get around just fine and I'm not worried about the future of cycling here.

However, with respect to places such as Portland and I am commenting from afar, I admit that, so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but I'd be worried if I moved to Portland.

I know this isn't likely (if ever) to happen anytime soon. However, you got to agree that if a city, say Portland, spends tons of money increasing cycling infrastructure, in the way of separated track ways, then it would be much easier for people that want us off the roads to make their case. --- Don't you agree?
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
It's not just the cyclists that think that.

Are you talking about the guy in portland and his histrionics about a city lunch club and their vision for a more bikeable portland? you don't have to 'freak out' that as cities approach double digit ridership, bike infrastructure is going to lead to bans of bicyclists from the rest of the roads.
We're starting to ride around in circles here.

I'm not talking about any "guys" any where. I was simply commenting on what I think may be a very likely possiblity if cities were to invest a large amount of money in separate trackways for bikes. Notice I didn't say cycling infrastructure, such as bike lanes.

But, it's probably just a moot point, because I really don't see it happening and if it does it'll probably be restricted to a city that wants to be an Amsterdam.


I don't know where your cycling experience(s) are from, but mine are from multiple states (retired navy), but never too much in a city, such as Portland, so I admit, maybe I'm missing something here. But from my experience (been commuting for over 25 years -- and a few tours) I really don't have a problem with cycling laws. But maybe your area of riding is an exception.

BTW, I don't think too many more people are going to adopt cycling as a way to commute; at least looking at the big picture. I know some cities, such as Portland are having somewhat of an "explosion" in popularity, but I think it will peak soon, but we'll see.

Davis California peaked in the '90's, but now they are going the opposite direction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ycle_commuters


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis,_California

Excerpt:

"Bicycling appears to be declining among Davis residents: from 1990 to 2000, the US Census Bureau reported a decline in the fraction of commuters traveling by bicycle, from 22 percent to 15 percent.[27] This resulted in the reestablishment of the city's Bicycle Advisory Commission and creation of advocate groups such as "Davis Bicycles!".
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Old 06-09-13, 09:13 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by john gault View Post
We're starting to ride around in circles here.

I'm not talking about any "guys" any where. I was simply commenting on what I think may be a very likely possiblity if cities were to invest a large amount of money in separate trackways for bikes. Notice I didn't say cycling infrastructure, such as bike lanes.

But, it's probably just a moot point, because I really don't see it happening and if it does it'll probably be restricted to a city that wants to be an Amsterdam.
right, so with that perspective, you should be able to see that suggesting the possibility a few cycle track lane miles in a city as large as Portland are going to lead to general bans of bicyclists from the roadways smacks of chicken little's "the sky is falling" hysteria.

you've explained your own point is moot.

-------------

When you say "wants to be an Amsterdam" what exactly do you mean? Successfully plan and move 40 percent of its daily traffic by bicycle? Perhaps, in that case, the track scheme makes sense, as it appears to work in those cities..... of course, Amsterdam has streets cyclists simply mix it up with the rest of the traffic, neutering those fears about 'bike bans' even more.

like it or not, when you ride on bike laned roads in Florida, you're expected to use them unless you have a specific excuse to avoid them. there's a legal and social expectation of their use..... so, in a sense, you ride- all florida cyclists ride- under restrictions similar to cyclist movement restrictions seen in amsterdam.

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Old 06-09-13, 09:56 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
is in conceding that for various reasons, some bike lanes perhaps should be removed to favor other routes for bike use. It didn't refer to any particular street or thoroughfare from which bike lanes should be removed.
I strongly believe that cyclists should have, as much as possible, equal access to our roads. The idea of removing bike lanes to funnel traffic into a limited set of cycle tracks is, IMO, a huge step backward. And the implicit assumption that bike lanes are inferior infrastructure is simply unfounded. Safety data and mode share data from europe shows that this is hardly a settled matter.


I'd be interested in knowing what ideas the City Club committee has towards reconfiguring a key section of Foster Rd in S.E. Portland, subject of ongoing PBOT project and neighborhood discussions, that could possibly result in reducing four main lanes of travel to three to allow room for bike lanes, or moving, curbs, trees and utilities to create a cycle-track. That's a specific, significant, difficult to decide upon project in terms of options, that people could use some support and direction on. The committee's studied opinion offered in regards to projects like that one could be important.
The current iteration of the Foster proposal dropped the cycle track. Votes at community meetings heavily favor the buffered bike lane option. Given that this will involve complete removal of parking, which is something that PBOT is very loathe to do, I expect Foster is about to get caught up in a Williams-esque drama.
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Old 06-09-13, 10:03 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
I strongly believe that cyclists should have, as much as possible, equal access to our roads. The idea of removing bike lanes to funnel traffic into a limited set of cycle tracks is, IMO, a huge step backward. And the implicit assumption that bike lanes are inferior infrastructure is simply unfounded. Safety data and mode share data from europe shows that this is hardly a settled matter.




The current iteration of the Foster proposal dropped the cycle track. Votes at community meetings heavily favor the buffered bike lane option. Given that this will involve complete removal of parking, which is something that PBOT is very loathe to do, I expect Foster is about to get caught up in a Williams-esque drama.
your quandary is impressive. Why do you feel threatened by a few cycletracks and expectations to take the lane on a lot of the roads of a more traffic calmed portland - You want more bufferered bikelanes everywhere instead?

It's obvious the nuanced approach is the better one. a mix of plain jane streets, bikelanes bike boulevards, buffered bikelanes, floating parking bikelanes, cycletracks, shared lane roadways and path networks is going to more adeptly serve cyclists needs in portland than your "buffered bikelanes everywhere" approach, "not a single separated facility anywhere! " absolutism.

....or, could you accept a few select cycletracks like those seen developing in New York City or Vancouver BC?

Remember, it's your issue, spare wheel - you're the one having what apparently are huge problems with a little forward thinking by the civic booster club of portland. The city has a scoping and design process in place that's going to look for the best needs of the most cyclists, and simply bulldozing a buffered bikelane everywhere isn't the solution.
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Old 06-09-13, 10:09 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
And yet the second largest city in Oregon lost one-third of its cyclists from 2009-11 while the nation as a whole saw an increase of 50% (Eugene 2009: 10.8%. Eugene 2011: 7.3%, according to the American Community Survey). Interestingly, that would correspond to the implementation of the first segregated cycletrack (only one death on it so far) and lots of chatter about our adoption of a copenhagenista-type bike plan. If bikeability implies folks will ride bikes, then why are we are going backwards as we add these sort of installations?

Perhaps there is some fatal flaw in attempting physical separation without accounting for intersections. Perhaps it also has to do with always forcing additional delays on cyclists so that motorists won't be "inconvenienced".
The dramatic decline in mode share in Davis also starkly illustrates how infrastructure alone is not a guarantee of high mode share. We should be talking more about what went wrong in Davis, imo.

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Old 06-09-13, 10:17 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
your quandary is impressive.
a little refresher on the current topic, bekologist:

Separate routes (such as cycletracks or paths) and low-speed routes (such as bicycle boulevards) should be prioritized over alternatives, even if it means eliminating bicycle lanes on high-speed or high-capacity streets.
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Old 06-09-13, 10:19 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
right, so with that perspective, you should be able to see that suggesting the possibility a few cycle track lane miles in a city as large as Portland are going to lead to general bans of bicyclists from the roadways smacks of chicken little's "the sky is falling" hysteria.

you've explained your own point is moot.

-------------

When you say "wants to be an Amsterdam" what exactly do you mean? Successfully plan and move 40 percent of its daily traffic by bicycle? Perhaps, in that case, the track scheme makes sense, as it appears to work in those cities..... of course, Amsterdam has streets cyclists simply mix it up with the rest of the traffic, neutering those fears about 'bike bans' even more.
I never said, "just a few miles of separate cyling tracks". And I'm not giving a "sky is falling" scenario, mainly because I've already admitted this is all probably just a moot point, so yes, you're right, my own point is moot.

As for the Amsterdam comment, I didn't mean anything very specific, since I really don't give it much thought, it's also a moot point. It's just something you hear once in a while, such as here: https://bikeportland.org/2008/04/25/d...amsterdam-7358 But again, it's a moot point, I don't see it happening, so I'm not going to waste any more time talking about it.

However, I will say that it's different in Amsterdam WRT cyclists mixing up with traffic, only because so many ride bikes, I don't see that many people riding bikes here in the U.S. Look at my previous link, the highest % is ~16.





Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
like it or not, when you ride on bike laned roads in Florida, you're expected to use them unless you have a specific excuse to avoid them. there's a legal and social expectation of their use..... so, in a sense, you ride- all florida cyclists ride- under restrictions similar to cyclist movement restrictions seen in amsterdam.
This is all part of living in a society with laws. Can you just ride down the middle of a road (without bikelanes), of course not. Even if you're in a car you must stick to a lane, can't just ride down the middle of the road.


And what about large trucks being restricted to lanes, does that bother you too? https://amarillo.com/news/local-news/...cks-right-lane

Excerpt:

“We want to keep slower, bigger vehicles out of the left lane to help through traffic,” Braun said. “But it’s also safety because if you have slower vehicles in the left lane, you have other vehicles making a lot of lane changes to get by.”


There has to be rules or else we got anarchy.
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Old 06-09-13, 01:53 PM
  #110  
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your quandary is impressive
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
a little refresher on the current topic, bekologist:


Separate routes (such as cycletracks or paths) and low-speed routes (such as bicycle boulevards) should be prioritized over alternatives, even if it means eliminating bicycle lanes on high-speed or high-capacity streets.
right, and you can't understand that model of transportation planning, you want 2 meter wide bikelanes everywhere with signs right next to them stating bicyclists may use full traffic lane.

you seem to fail to grasp context sensitive design, planning that may lead to smarter transportation growth in portland, or that these are just the suggestions in a white paper from one of Portland's upper class lunch/civic clubs about their plan for bicycling in portland. Did you confuse the PBOT with the city club or something?

a little refresher on the topic, spare wheel....

Originally Posted by bekologist
,,,,,smacks of chicken little's "the sky is falling" hysteria.
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Old 06-09-13, 01:53 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by john gault View Post

Davis California peaked in the '90's, but now they are going the opposite direction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ycle_commuters


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis,_California

Excerpt:

"Bicycling appears to be declining among Davis residents: from 1990 to 2000, the US Census Bureau reported a decline in the fraction of commuters traveling by bicycle, from 22 percent to 15 percent.[27] This resulted in the reestablishment of the city's Bicycle Advisory Commission and creation of advocate groups such as "Davis Bicycles!".
Well, as a resident of Davis from 1980-2001, I can say with absolute certainty that cycling in Davis did not peak in the '90s. In fact, bicycles became so scarce that my family (and that of my sister-in-law) became known as "the bike family" simply because we refused to let go of the past and continued to meet all of our transportation desires by bike. While no one was documenting the number of people cycling (Why would we, we thought it would never end.), it likely reached its peak in the early- or mid-80s and fell dramatically from there. I guess one could look through the U.C. Davis construction records and just note when things like the multi-story parking garage replaced the intramural field north of the M.U. (student commons) went in and estimate the peak of the bike as at least five years prior. When the bike was the dominant means of transportation in Davis, the few parking lots on campus were mostly empty. Bike parking, on the other hand, was a real problem.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
The dramatic decline in mode share in Davis also starkly illustrates how infrastructure alone is not a guarantee of high mode share. We should be talking more about what went wrong in Davis, imo.
I've spent far too much time wondering what went wrong a quarter century ago in Davis. There were several things in play, including:
1. Gas got quite cheap. Cars got bigger.
2. Tuition came to the U.C., so poor students who were working our way through college went from the norm to a rarity. Suddenly, all the undergrads had cars that were paid for by their parents. (Okay, not all, but certainly there was a large increase.)
3. The city adopted a densification plan that created lots of high-density zones of residential/retail mashed together. The result was an unprecedented uptick in car density at these locations. There were so many of these created that there was no way to avoid them and they did indeed increase the perception of danger for cyclists.
4. Both the City and University police departments abandoned their previous zero-tolerance traffic enforcement policies.
5. Because of increased traffic in East Sacramento, more people were choosing to live in Davis and commute to work in Sacramento by car, turning it into more of a bedroom community with a university than a college town. This also led to increases in housing prices in Davis that likely caused many lower income newcomers and students to live in other cities and drive in. (I also spent many of my years living in Davis and working in Sacramento, as did many of my friends. However, we just rode our bikes to work; it's not like it's very far between those cities.)

Interestingly, while the bikes were disappearing from Davis, the city multiplied its bike-specific infrastructure by several-fold with a particular focus on bike paths. So, we had the perverse situation where it was built, and they not only didn't come, they disappeared.

Personally, I think the loss of traffic enforcement was the biggest change. Thankfully, the city cops are taking some small steps to begin enforcing traffic laws again. However, once a cultural change takes place, it can be hard to reverse. For instance, if you visit U.C. Davis today, you will see almost the same number of bikes in the racks at 3:00 A.M. as in the middle of the day. This is because people now drive to campus and use a bike for short trips on campus, so they just store it there. I suspect this is why Davis still shows decent, although low compared to its peak, numbers of people who claim to be riding. Sure, they're riding, but not for the main part of their trip. One will also see a sizeable contingent of folks arrive at the campus and other sites in town with their bikes on their cars, a sight that was unheard of when the population actually rode their bikes to get around.
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Old 06-09-13, 01:56 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by john gault View Post
my own point is moot.
ayap.

Originally Posted by BCarfree
I've spent far too much time wondering what went wrong a quarter century ago in Davis.
you mean, how davis maintains 17 percent rider share, one of the highest rates of ridership in the country?




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Old 06-09-13, 02:57 PM
  #113  
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Maybe Spare wheel confused the city club's lunch table white paper catering, presumably, to those rich enough to pay 200 bucks a year to be in the city club, with the


BICYCLE TRANSPORTATION ALLIANCE (the state bicycle advocacy group) "Blueprint for world class cycling" plan for Portland released this week as well.

btas-new-blueprint-prioritizes-16-bike-projects-for-portland-region-87823

4 project focus recommendations....

Originally Posted by Jonathan Maus, bike portland.org
Make Big Streets Safe, which focuses on protected facilities that could make bicyclists comfortable on high-traffic commercial roads: North and Northeast Broadway, downtown Portland in general, Southeast Foster Road and the Tualatin Valley Highway.
Let's Fix It, which includes, for example, "the bike lane that goes nowhere": Barbur Boulevard, Sullivan's Gulch crossings of Interstate 84, the crossings of Highway 26 in Washington County and the Interstate 205 Path Gap.
Create Neighborhood Greenways, calling for "a region-wide approach" to the network of multimodal side streets that are bike-friendly thanks to 20 mph speed limits, speed humps and traffic diverters: Monroe Street in Milwaukie, the Northeast 7th to Southeast 9th Avenue corridor in Portland, and Washington County and East Portland in general.
Build Inspiring Trails, which uses the Springwater Trail from Southeast Portland to Gresham and Boring as a model for other long routes that combine recreation and transportation


and a link to the BTA report .....

Blueprint for World Class Cycling

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Old 06-09-13, 04:03 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
Well, as a resident of Davis from 1980-2001, I can say with absolute certainty that cycling in Davis did not peak in the '90s. In fact, bicycles became so scarce that my family (and that of my sister-in-law) became known as "the bike family" simply because we refused to let go of the past and continued to meet all of our transportation desires by bike. While no one was documenting the number of people cycling (Why would we, we thought it would never end.), it likely reached its peak in the early- or mid-80s and fell dramatically from there.
I stand corrected. Interesting perspective from someone who knows...
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Old 06-09-13, 04:11 PM
  #115  
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Oh, It's tough to take that commentary about Davis bicycling seriously, earlier in the thread B Carfree was describing the Sellwood bridge as one of the most pleasant portions of all of Portland to ride.

Originally Posted by B Carfree
Sadly, the least unpleasant part of the whole passage through Portland, other than the truly nice trip through the cemetery, was the Sellwood Bridge,
The illustrious Sellwood bridge in Portland, which is not pleasant to ride at all. it's very honk-ey in the lane. Presumably, B Carfree would like all the bridges in portland to look like the Sellwood?

Davis mantains the highest ridership in the entire country, John.

Portland cyclists aren't going to be banned from roads without bikeways (lanes,tracks,etc), they'll still be free to get anywhere they have to or want to by bike.
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Old 06-09-13, 04:32 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
Oh, It's tough to take that commentary about Davis bicycling seriously, earlier in the thread B Carfree was describing the Sellwood bridge as one of the most pleasant portions of all of Portland to ride.



The illustrious Sellwood bridge in Portland, which is not pleasant to ride at all. it's very honk-ey in the lane. Presumably, B Carfree would like all the bridges in portland to look like the Sellwood?

Davis mantains the highest ridership in the entire country, John.

I wonder what the Bicycle Transportation Alliance blueprint for world class cycling has to say about the Sellwood Bridge?
It looks quite a bit different on a Saturday morning in the summer relative to your photo of a dreary commute morning. Timing is everything, as she says. In the short time it took to cross the bridge, no cars came upon us from the rear, which is no big surprise since it is quite a short bridge (your photo shows nearly half its length).

And bek, let's refrain from the old lie of incomplete quotes, shall we? It should be beneath you. Go back and note that I also positively noted the cemetery pass-through, which was the work of people in the PBOT I believe, and the Springwater, although it could use a bit of upgrading.

But do go ahead and refuse to take seriously the comments of someone who lived in the legendary "bike capital of the world" when it actually earned the title. If we refuse to even acknowledge that we once had it better, then I guess it's 1984 every year. Down the memory hole with all those streets filled with cyclists and devoid of cars. Replace it with a PR photo from Copenhagen. I guess it must suck to have people point out that bikes can dominate the public right-of-way without making major alterations to it. And do also go ahead, accuse everyone whose experience differs from your dreams of being a liar if it makes you feel better. Just know that it doesn't further your argument in any way.
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Old 06-09-13, 04:47 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
ayap.

you mean, how davis maintains 17 percent rider share, one of the highest rates of ridership in the country?


Which is a looooong step down from its heyday. (Or, since it was originally the University farm, maybe that should be hay day.) When I am in Davis, which happens several times per year, I just don't see streets with thousands of bikes and no cars like we had thirty years ago. Perhaps its current condition looks good from the vantage of the relative bike desert that you and most of this nation experience, but compared to what it was it feels like just another car-dominated suburb, which is what it has become.

Also note, the ridership numbers are likely grossly inflated. As I explained, people who are driving or taking Unitrans either bring a bike on their cars or leave a bike on campus. Many of these people will likely be counted as cyclists by the ACS, when in fact they are motorists. Maybe you should take a visit some time and really take a look. Let me know when you are heading down and I might be able to give you a tour.

Take a look at the street in front of Haring Hall. It was once normal to have bikes parked two deep on both sides of the street for more than the length of that building. Today, you would be lucky to see 10% that number, and it's not because there has been more parking added; there's less today than there was thirty years ago. Same story in front of Wellman, although the parking is in circles there. Sure, someone who is used to no bikes sees that there are a few and thinks that's great. For someone who was accustomed to seeing ten times that number, I wonder what went wrong. When Shields library expanded, two-thirds of the bike parking was lost and no one cared because it was no longer being used.

It's all relative. Davis, even if its inflated numbers are corrected, is still doing well compared to the rest of the U.S. However, compared to its own recent history, it has gone backwards. I focus on the latter relationship because I think it can teach us something.
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Old 06-09-13, 05:10 PM
  #118  
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the video from Davis shows a vastly different city than you're describing!!! your depiction of the sellwood never ceases to make me chuckle. i bet it gets laughs even from spare wheel!! but you do hit the nail on the head on what's changed davis from 25 percent ridership to, ohmygosh, seventeen percent....

Originally Posted by B Carfree
just another car-dominated suburb, which is what it has become.
exactly what everyone else points too as well- less people living in Davis with bike-able commutes, a lot of long distance commuting in california if you hadn't noticed. it's funny, those depictions of cycling in Davis sound markedly far fetched. if cycling has declined a few percent, how in the world were there EVER

For someone who was accustomed to seeing ten times that number,
ten times the number of bikes parked anywhere in Davis? Davis still moves about a sixth of it's commutes by bike.

Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
If we refuse to even acknowledge that we once had it better, then I guess it's 1984 every year.
Wait, you're confusing Davis with Portland, which are both still doing gangbusters in the bicycling departments, despite your belief they've suffered major setbacks in bikeability.

Surely, you're not suggesting cyclists had it better in portland in 1984 than today? that would be fantastical.

What did you think about the much more important PDX bike report put forth last week by the actual Bicycling advocacy group in Oregon?

Blueprint for World Class Cycling

Originally Posted by bicycle transportation alliance
Our vision for the Portland-Metro region is one where people of any age and any comfort level can use a bicycle to meet their daily transportation needs. Whether it’s riding to work, to the corner store, or simply going out for a recreational ride on the weekend, we need safe and accessible facilities in every community, in every neighborhood, and on every street in the region.

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Old 06-09-13, 08:09 PM
  #119  
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I don't know if this has been mentioned in this thread: https://www.kptv.com/story/22531306/p...pp&hpt=us_bn10

But I came across it while on CNN's website, and started to wonder 'Why is Portland allowing this even for a meager 7-mile ride at night, when they are trying to rip out the bike lanes?'. Portland is being two-faced. I am glad I don't live there.
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Old 06-09-13, 09:46 PM
  #120  
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B. Carfree,
Thanks for your commentary on Davis. I guess "build it and they will come" did not work as planned in Davis.


PS: When bekologist starts littering his posts with incoherent text, random images, mis-quotes, and strawmen he is really just waving the rhetorical white flag.
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Old 06-09-13, 10:29 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
they'll still be free to get anywhere they have to or want to by bike.
especially if they ride in the world-class copenhagen-style* facility 6 blocks out of their way.

*does not conform to minimum danish standards.
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Old 06-09-13, 10:32 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
B. Carfree,
Thanks for your commentary on Davis. I guess "build it and they will come" did not work as planned in Davis.


PS: When bekologist starts littering his posts with incoherent text, random images, mis-quotes, and strawmen he is really just waving the rhetorical white flag.
It's always entertaining how he attacks anyone who actually lives in the places he wants to claim are fantastic places for cycling. Somehow, experience with crappy "improvements" (as opposed to actual improvements, which do exist) is less valid than some bureaucratic plan put together by people who don't have to ride in the messes they create. Of course, in the long run most of the new cyclists will either become former cyclists or they will get enough knowledge and experience to join the fight against segregation, or at least stop supporting its implementation. I suspect people like bek are so strident because they sense they are on the wrong side of history here but are emotionally invested in a segregated outcome.

It's funny that he chooses to argue that the incredible ridership we once had in Davis could not have been and that the current numbers are bloated and deceiving when he could chat up some of the old faculty who were at U.C. Davis and ask them for their opinions on the changes over the years. Many of them are still on campus like Roy Doi, Richard Criddle, Sterling Chaykin, Ray Rodriguez, Kenneth C. Burtis (undergrad in the '70s, faculty since ~1990). I guess it's just too easy to dismiss inconvenient perceptions that differ from his own. Funny enough, almost all of those folks stopped riding their bikes in the '80s. Hmm.

I'm still not sure if his reading comprehension issues stem from his childishness or if he is actually just a bot. Perversely, I find his ramblings kind of entertaining the first couple of times, but he or his programmer really need to avoid getting stuck in those useless loops of repetition.
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Old 06-09-13, 11:45 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
It's always entertaining how he attacks anyone who actually lives in the places he wants to claim are fantastic places for cycling. Somehow, experience with crappy "improvements" (as opposed to actual improvements, which do exist) is less valid than some bureaucratic plan put together by people who don't have to ride in the messes they create...I suspect people like bek are so strident because they sense they are on the wrong side of history here but are emotionally invested in a segregated outcome.
I think many supporters of sub-par infrastructure live in a unanimity bubble. prick it and they react with anger and denial. i also agree that the backlash against poorly-designed infrastructure is pretty much inevitable. mention the broadway or cully cycle track and you are now likely to hear grumbling or out right hostility from cyclists in pdx.

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Old 06-09-13, 11:49 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
is less valid than some bureaucratic plan put together by people who don't have to ride in the messes they create
its definitely easier to propose that others use "alternative routes when you have the option of hopping in your car and taking the direct route.
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Old 06-10-13, 12:37 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
It's always entertaining how he attacks anyone who actually lives in the places he wants to claim are fantastic places for cycling.
Don't you know, Bek can glean more about cycling an area from google maps, than someone who has cycle commuted the area for 20 years.
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