Originally Posted by Bekologist

What in the world gave you the idea Portland's city club is a group of "so-called advocates?"

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

I mean for crying out loud, the Dutch cycling embassy has taken to posting tit for tat rebuttals to AFDC (German cycling federation) criticism of Dutch segregated infrastructure. If you are not aware that the AFDC has staked out an anti-cycle track and pro "right to the road position" you have simply not been paying attention.

I guess you also did not have the time to click on any of the links in Heine's blog post or the embedded links I posted previously. It must be very taxing being the resident bike forum curmudgeon.

A report on Munich's removal of cycle tracks from a PBOT staffer who is, if anything, someone who would tend to favor segregation:

https://livablestreet.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/182/

Originally Posted by Bekologist

Who knows, spare wheel - maybe Portland will rip out a few bikelanes and put in a few cycletracks, and then in a decade, once bike traffic doubles, take them out again. Seems like the pattern, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by UberGeek

Wikipedia is a sign of intellectual laziness, but blog postings are fine...
lol

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

And since you may not trust a lowly blogger (Bike Quarterly publisher Jan Heine) let me provide you with a direct link to news story about the high-court case that has effectively repealed mandatory sidepath laws:

https://www.velonation.com/News/ID/24...n-Germany.aspx

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

You know bekologist, I've figured out that once the ad hominems and animated smilies come out you are trolling.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

Lets just be clear. The city club was proposing to remove bike lanes on other streets after installation of a cycle track. This is not about replacement, its about removal of existing infrastructure.

PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.

Originally Posted by john gault

On one hand I find these threads (removal of bike lanes for separate cycle tracks) very disturbing, but on the other hand I feel somewhat immuned to it, simply because I've always lived in areas far removed from these issues; seems these issues are always being talked about in big cities.

However, I've always said, if we cyclists demand separate cycle tracks and a very elaborate cycling infrastructure, that would pretty much give the people that want us off the roads the ammunition to kill our rights to the roads.

Originally Posted by Bekologist

.... even with the mandatory bike facility use law in place in your state?

Originally Posted by Bekologist

oregon, new york state,Florida and california all have mandatory bikelane laws, and it hasn't stopped cities there from really increasing the bikeability of cities large and small in those states.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike

Besides not taking seriously your references to blogs, I don't place much faith in the accuracy of an alleged news story about cyclists' rights, bloated with blatant editorializing about the alleged dangers of German and Danish bike paths: I'll take my direct observation and personal experience gained over 10 years of bike commuting and travel while living in Germany over the results of your Web searches for blogs and out of context news snippets that meet your preconceived notions about cycling in Germany or The Netherlands.

Originally Posted by Bekologist;15720307

oregon, new york state,[B

Florida[/B] and california all have mandatory bikelane laws, and it hasn't stopped cities there from really increasing the bikeability of cities large and small in those states.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

bekologist,

...............

have a nice day.

PS: there is no such thing as pdot.

Originally Posted by john gault

BTW, I'm not sure where this is, but I've never run across it. If it does exist, must be in a big city, like Miami. It's not in Jacksonville, I've been all over and never had a problem, even on roads that parallel bikepaths, which I never use.

Originally Posted by john gault

Like I said, I feel immune to all this and Florida is a great state to ride in, so yes I can get around just fine and I'm not worried about the future of cycling here.

However, with respect to places such as Portland and I am commenting from afar, I admit that, so maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but I'd be worried if I moved to Portland.

I know this isn't likely (if ever) to happen anytime soon. However, you got to agree that if a city, say Portland, spends tons of money increasing cycling infrastructure, in the way of separated track ways, then it would be much easier for people that want us off the roads to make their case. --- Don't you agree?

Originally Posted by john gault

Bike lanes are a completely different issue and I completly agree with the mandatory bikelane use. But I've noticed that a lot of cyclists don't understand the law and think that any movement from the bikelane to the road is prohibited, it's not.

Originally Posted by Bekologist

no, no, the entire state of florida rides under a mandatory bikelane law. As does Oregon.

Originally Posted by Bekologist

not when 30 percent of the population moves themselves by bike. people will recognize they need to get to their homes and the bakery on the side street.

Seeing bikes prohibited from all public roads without bike facilities in cities with high ridership is extremely unlikely!

when cities see 20-30 percent ridership, you'd better believe preserving access by bike becomes a paramount planning issue.

The idea that adding in roadway bike facilities that lead to increases in bike traffic will lead to bans on public travel by bike is extremely far fetched.

Will there be laws preventing traveling by bike in public in American cities that have robust infrastructure networks? Highly, infinitesimally unlikely.

Originally Posted by john gault

And I addressed that in the following post. If you read the laws on the books, at least for Florida, it's a very common sense approach. No problems here; I'm the happy cyclists

Originally Posted by Bekologist

See? You're not worried florida's mandatory use law is going to lead to negative perceptions of bicyclists when they use the roads. (If i were living in florida, i would be.) Pretty sure it's a hot topic among the cycling advocacy and cycling clubs there, even if they're not trying to repeal it yet.

Originally Posted by john gault

When I first posted to this thread I was addressing separate cycling track infrastructure, not bike lanes. As I said before I don't have an issue with the law, it makes sense. And I know many cyclists here and elsewhere don't like it, I've argued the point with a local club here in Jax.

The law will not lead to any negative perceptions on cyclists. Only bad cyclists can do that.

I think the whole point behind the law is because some cyclists seem to think it's all right to ride in large groups with multiple cyclists abreast, tieing up traffic. That's just wrong and it's that behavior that leads to negative perceptions, not the law.

Originally Posted by B. Carfree

After massively subsidizing personal automobiles for the better part of seven decades, it's no surprise that the default mode of transportation is personal automobiles. In light of the extraordinary damage this has done to our nation, just the projected medical costs of sedentary transportation over the next two decades is frightening, it is high time we made it less easy (or more difficult, if you like to look at things that way) to drive everywhere one's heart desires. It's actually amazing that there are any people who aren't addicted to cars in light of all the efforts to create the perception that the only way a person can be mobile is to get into a car.

Perhaps you think we are going to lose the battle for the hearts and minds of the corpulent folks in the suburbs if we dare to be both pro-bike and anti-car. Well, I think a lot of them, particularly the younger ones, have about had it with the subsidized car culture and are ready to move on. Certainly there has been some data this decade to indicate that we are very near to peak car, and certainly young folks are less inclined to even obtain drivers' licenses than older people. We're on the right side of history; this is no time to look for crumbs.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

Lets just be clear. The city club was proposing to remove bike lanes on other streets after installation of a cycle track. This is not about replacement, its about removal of existing infrastructure.

PS: It will be very entertaining to see them try to do this in PDX.