genec

If bike messengers are giving cyclists a bad name, then pizza delivery guys are giving motorists a bad name.

RobertHurst

Non-messengers who dress up like messengers and ride track bikes poorly in the fantasy alleycat race that is playing in their heads give messengers as well as other cyclists a bad name.

Chaco

Exactly. How about this motorist? I bet motorists REALLY have a bad name because of him!

Chris516

How do bike messengers typically dress?

joejeweler

Rather lame reasoning to break the law,....it's their "job".

They drive a bicycle wrecklessly and put others as well as themselves at risk,....but heh,....when you absolutely, positively need your packages to get delivered fast!

A hit man has a job TOO, but I doubt you'd go so far in that case to cut them the same slack.

unterhausen

what percentage of motorists in the U.S. have actually seen a bike messenger at work?

spare_wheel

Fixed it for you:

Rather good reason to violate car-centric minor traffic statutes that have nothing to do with safety,.....it's their "job".

Some safety statistics for 2010:

4280 pedestrians killed by motorists.
0 pedestrians killed by bike messengers.

joejeweler

You and member Wolfchild should start your own style of riding, since you both seem proponants of wreckless and irresponsible bicycling habits.

Lets call it riding "VCS" , for "Vehicular Cycling Suicide"

The statistics you leave out are the serious injuries and property damage wreckless messenger cycling causes, or deaths caused by a vehicle swerving to avoid hitting a wild cyclist and then hitting a pedestrian, another vehicle, or possibly a building.

.......and then there are simply the deaths incured by the cyclists (messengers) themselves that you don't have statistics on.

I did find a report on the deaths and serious injury of cyclists in NYC between 1996-2005 that's worth a read. I copied just the "Key Findings" 1st page below, but there is much more in the full report linked here:

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/download...fatalities.pdf

Opinions like yours and Wolfchild do little to further the cause for more dedicated bicycling infrastructure desired by the majority of safety conscious cyclists.


Key Findings

1. While bicyclist injuries declined between 1996 and 2003, fatalities remained steady.

•
Between 1996 and 2003, a total of 3,462 NYC bicyclists were seriously injured in crashes with motor vehicles.

The annual number of serious bicyclist injuries decreased by 46% during the 8-year period.

•
Between 1996 and 2005, 225 bicyclists died in crashes. Bicyclist deaths remained steady during the 10-year period.

2. Bicyclist fatality rates in New York City are similar to national rates, though NYC has higher rates of

cycling for transportation.

•
The bicyclist fatality rate for NYC is similar to the national rate – 2.8 compared to 2.7 per one million residents.

•
Census data show that many more NYC adults (11% vs. 3%) walk or bicycle to work compared to the national average.

3. Nearly all bicyclist fatalities (92%) occurred as a result of crashes with motor vehicles.

•
Most crashes (89%) occurred at or near intersections.

•
Although they make up only 5–17% of vehicles on NYC roadways, large vehicles (trucks, buses) accounted

for almost one third (32%) of fatalities.

•
Nearly all (94%) fatalities involved poor driving or bicycle riding practices, particularly driver inattention and disregarding traffic signals and signs.

•
Although there are many more miles of local roads, more than half of fatal crashes occurred on arterial (large,

four lane) roads (53%).

•
7% of fatal crashes occurred on limited access highways, where bicycling is prohibited.

4. Bicycle lanes and properly used bicycle equipment may reduce the risk of fatalities.

•
Only one fatal crash with a motor vehicle occurred when a bicyclist was in a marked bicycle lane.

•
Nearly all bicyclists who died (97%) were not wearing a helmet.

•
Most fatal crashes (74%) involved a head injury.

5. Nine possible fatality clusters were identified.

•
Three locations where fatalities occurred in closest proximity were found in the east side of Manhattan north of

midtown, Park Slope in Brooklyn, and Hunts Point in the Bronx.

•
Locations where injuries occurred in close proximity were found in Midtown Manhattan, the northern sides of

Central Park, and Central Bronx.

6. Men and children face particular challenges.

•
Most bicyclists who died were male (91%), and men aged 45–54 had the highest death rate (8.3 per million) per

age group.

•
Among children aged 5–14, the death rate for boys was more than five times higher than for girls; Queens had the

highest child bicyclist death rate of the five boroughs (3.2 child deaths per million, compared to 2.1 child deaths

per million citywide).

mustang1

In London I noticed bike messengers stop at many, but not all, traffic lights. Not sure if it's too improve cycling image, their own image, too dangerous these days, or just that cops are cracking down on that kinda stuff.

Keith99

I disagree. Unlike cabs, or for that matter UPS or delivery trucks, bike messengers have no distinctive markings.

Perhaps the best comparison would be to Pizza delivery guys. They have the same pressures to get there fast as bike messengers. They don't have the freedom to be quite as bad (you can't split a lane where you simply don't fit and taking the sidewalk would get noticed in a car).

Only reason Pizza delivery guys don't give drivers a bad name is because they are identified as different.

spare_wheel

redacted

RobertHurst

Oh man..

I love when the law-and-order people start talking about all the mythical carnage caused by reckless cyclists who can charge through red lights while laughing maniacally, and send innocent drivers veering wildly into other cars, pedestrians and buildings. Yeah man, happens all the time. Hospitals are filled with the collateral damage of reckless messengers!! Even if there is no collateral damage at that particular intersection, the red light runner causes objects to explode and babies to shoot into the air in some other part of the city..

Without a doubt the most careful and conservative riders I have ever known in my life were/are veteran bike messengers.

For instance I know one guy in Denver who has been a courier for 27 years. He has had one collision during that time, when he was doored slightly by a double-parked vehicle. That's over 30,000 hours of cycling on busy streets. If you want to know how to ride safely in traffic, follow him around for a while and watch. (That would be a lot less exciting than people seem to think.) He's still downtown as far as I know, one of the last working messengers in town.

RobertHurst

Very small percentage... and getting smaller all the time.

What percentage of internet commenters commenting on bike messengers have actually seen a bike messenger at work?

spare_wheel

dnftt.

RobertHurst

Also puts you in a prime jaywalker-ramming position.

RobertHurst

Well, when one of them happens to wander into my only area of expertise, I am powerless to resist.

joejeweler

Mark Twain once said:

" It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."


Fitting i think

"conservative and careful" my arse!

Guess who loses below?

(Messenger) ===== (Roadie) ======== (commuter)

CB HI

You must be looking in a mirror.

RobertHurst

I'll repeat. The most careful and conservative cyclists I have ever known have ALL been veteran bicycle messengers (and in many cases also "roadies" and "commuters"). Sorry this doesn't correspond to your weird fantasies. Of course I have known several rather non-careful messengers as well, but they tend not to last very long as such.

I doubt you've ever seen an actual bike messenger in your entire life.

CB HI

I have.

I have even played bike messenger when someone in our office or myself is in need of something being delivered in the next 15 minutes across town.

Messangers have far more to loss if the get in a collision. Few have health insurance and an injury puts them out of work. That is why they use their skills to avoid collisions far better than most cyclist.

RobertHurst

Silly Americans think anybody riding a bike downtown with a messenger bag is a working messenger.

In most American cities bike messengers make up 0.0 percent of the hundreds of people riding around with messenger bags at any given time.

RobertHurst

Now do that over and over for nine hours every day, day after day, year after year, through the same intersections, seeing the same people, like a goldfish in a bowl, while remaining accountable to your company, dispatcher, clients, fellow citizens and fellow messengers, while insured by a multi-million dollar liability policy as required by law, and not hitting anybody or anything, and keeping your bikes running, and getting all your packages delivered on time, and you have real messenger work.

No disrespect, but people "playing bike messenger" has greatly complicated the actual messengers' job. (EDIT: It's a $#!##* enough job as it is...)


True about health insurance. Because messengers have to be able to ride constantly, and walk several miles a day, and carry heavy loads, even a stupid ankle or wrist sprain can put you out.

Health insurance or not, nobody wants to get crushed while delivering somebody else's 5$ package.

I think veteran messengers avoid collisions far better than most cyclists simply because they are the most experienced traffic cyclists out there, by far. After a few thousand hours you know where to look and what to watch out for.

wolfchild

Here you go, this is from Toronto. I hope my link works.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevorh...57624999460264

joejeweler

After looking at the video of the OP, You sir, ARE FULL OF SH*T!

RobertHurst

So like most people everything you think you know about messengers comes from some video or another.

What do you think Dexter's crash-per-mile rate is, and how would that compare to you.