Chitown_Mike

I recently read Illinois' rules on AFRAP and they state that a cyclist can "take the lane" if they feel the need to. In some cases, like a 4 lane road, they encourage the cyclist to ride in the right lane's right tire track instead of against the curb. I ride a short distance on a 4 lane road to commute to work and I will use the right lane's right tire track when I feel my safety is an issue, i.e. a bus is coming up behind me. Otherwise there is enough room for me to safely hug the curb and hold a line.

I make sure I ride as predictably as possible for motorists around me because I also drive and the namby pamby riding of some is annoying and dangerous. Seems like the OP's state is a little overzealous about cyclists on the street.

genec

Since you responded to me... I have but one thing to say... please do not "hug the curb." Get out there and ride like you mean it and don't act like a second class road user and slink along the edge. Move away from the curb, and consider that "safety is always an issue."

Even when I ride in bike lanes, I tend to stick to the left edge of a bike lane, so I will be more visible to motorists... instead of blending into the "furniture" along the side of the road.

Really... there is no safety in hugging the curb. Such action just invites close passes by motorists that think they can make it.

ro-monster

I have found this to be true as well. And I've noticed also that cyclists can be very hard to see when they are close to the parked cars, signs, and myriad other objects that line the sides of the road. Many people seem to look only straight ahead of them while driving, so for them, the cyclist on the edge of the street is even less visible. In addition, I've observed that cyclists who hug the curb have to move into the lane to get around parked cars, and this can make them appear to just "pop out of nowhere."

Chitown_Mike

I appreciate the words, and I will definitely try. I should have explained that the curb includes the 6" shoulder before the actual curb, and I am on about the 6" of asphalt that butts against it. I like it because it causes me to focus on holding my line and paying attention, but I am by no means crowded by the curb.

But I will consider the advice and ride a bit more over as I would rather not be mistaken for furniture and end up as a couch potato!

ro-monster

Thanks, I will check it out!

spare_wheel

I am in Portland and I love riding in traffic.
I pass hundreds of cars on my commute.
25 mph is the standard arterial speed in Portland and I can maintain 25 for a long time.
I prefer direct routes and enjoy my right to travel safely and efficiently
I have been a road user for 45 years.


Summary:

I am in ur lane cycling on ur r0Adz!

buzzman

The percentage of cyclists who can maintain a speed of 25 miles "for a long time" (especially in hilly areas) puts you in a pretty small minority.

Not that our traffic laws should discriminate against fit cyclists but I do think it makes sense to consider the large majority of cyclists who may be operating their bikes at much slower speeds. Slower cyclists moving at, for example 10 mph, may find it more challenging to "take the lane" even at relatively low speed limits.

What provisions or strategies would you recommend to these cyclists?

BTW, I would say "you are riding in your lane and riding on your roads", if you are riding in the manner which you describe.

spare_wheel

If someone is averaging 10 mph I think walking is actually a better alternative for short trips. Its better cardiovascular exercise and improves bone health. That being said, I have absolutely no problem with slow cyclists taking the full lane. In fact, I encourage it.

buzzman

For me, I would say it depends on the circumstances.

In some American cities, like Boston and NYC and many others, average traffic speeds can be anywhere from 9.8 mph to around 18 mph, in which case it is easy for a cyclist to blend into traffic in the lane.

In other less congested regions, this may not be the case and while you may feel that a speed of 10 mph on a bicycle is not enough of a cardiovascular work out I can think of several riders I know who pull trailers regularly, carry large amounts of groceries or ride in hilly areas who might be inclined to disagree with this rather simplistic assessment of how much of a "work out" they get on their ride. In fact, many of them could care less about their bone density and cardiovascular fitness and find riding a bike at 10 mph with a load of groceries much preferable to walking with the same bag of groceries at say, 3-5 mph, and are relieved that it takes less effort.

And many of these riders do not live in areas quite as "bicycle friendly" with drivers who are far less forgiving. I'm not saying this is right but it is a fact of life for many riders in the US and, as has been pointed out in this thread several times, it's not so easy to educate drivers and change the culture to allow for cyclists moving at considerably less than the speed limit to simply "take the lane".

On a side note, kudos to you! I don't know of that many 60+ year old cyclists who can maintain an average speed of 25 mph! It's impressive and certainly attests to your cardio vascular fitness.

spare_wheel

Cycling is also road use...and my parents took off the training wheels when I was 4.

buzzman

I stand corrected. Though I am not sure which I find more impressive a 60+ year old guy who can easily maintain an average speed of 25 mph for long periods of time or someone who began riding a bike on the road and "taking the lane" at age 4!

Just curious but were you traveling at more than 10 mph at the time? If so, even more impressive!

spare_wheel

The don't make quiet neighborhood streets like they used to, buzzman.

turbo1889

On a pedal only cycle I usually just barely break the 20-mph mark for in-town riding on the flat. That is not on a road bike but rather on a "commuterized" mountain bike with smooth tread fat tires (HookWorms rule dude) because up here the roads are rough enough that the fragile frame and wheels and thin little tires of a road bike cannot be relied upon for daily commting. That is with minimal cargo either on a rear rack or in a back-pack (just the essentials for back and forth to work, rain poncho, tube-patches, 15mm wrench for nutty axles, my lunch, spare batteries for the bike lights, etc.) and I find it no problem to ride in 25-mph speed limit roads "All In" riding just like I was a motorcycle. Yah, a few motorists find it annoying that I'm only going 20-mph in a 25-mph zone but that is usually because they want to go 35 to 55 mph in that 25-mph zone and for such individuals I really don't care that it annoys them that me being on the road is part of what keeps them from speeding while they sit and stew behind the cars behind me. Sometimes on a steep hill that slows me down to less then 15-mph if there is room to safely FRAP I will do so out of courtesy while climbing the hill. I do not, however, view this as any kind of compulsory obligation on my part, I consider it as me doing other people a favor and being a nice guy, if motorists decide to harass me I will pull back out into the main lain and take the main lane all the way down to speeds of not only 10-mph but even slightly less in a 25-mph speed zone. I have done it more then once, but only because a motorist decided to respond to me being nice and going FRAP while slowed down while climbing the hill by harassing me will I was trying to be nice to them. I try to be a nice guy but if you decide to harass me in response to me doing you a favor you will find out I don't owe you any favors.

All of my cargo bikes that I haul groceries and such with have some form of assistance and are not powered by human pedal power alone but use a hybrid power system combining the power of the human motor with an additional power source (totally legal in my state provided the additional power source is within certain power and speed limits and human pedal power is maintained) specifically so I can maintain the same kind of speeds while hauling or towing cargo and continue to make full use of the roadways in low speed zones (25-mph or less) to maintain my safety, visibility, and effective transportation abilities without being marginalized. Yes, if necessary I have and will haul an tow cargo under pedal power alone, I've done it plenty of times (its a b*tch when you run out of battery juice with still ten miles of hills to go to get home on a big warehouse bulk grocery and livestock feed run with a couple hundred pounds of cargo divided between the cargo bike and the trailer its pulling) but I prefer to use assistance to maintain the performance level I'm used to getting when "running light" without any substantial cargo load and still not have to resort to driving a car, especially on a beautiful day.

At the same time though, while I do my best to maintain sufficient speed to make full use of low speed roadways (25-mph or less) as an equal in traffic with cars I also completely understand the fact that on high speed roadways (45-mph or more) unless heavy vehicle traffic density is very light riding FRAP on a cycle makes the most sense if it can be safely, effectively, and efficiently done. The problem I see is that often the infrastructure doesn't allow for a cyclist to ride FRAP on many such roads without compromising their own safety and/or ability to travel effectively and efficiently. On low speed roadways (25-mph or less), with the possible exception of dedicated hill climbing lanes for bicycles on steep hills, I see FRAP as a dangerous mindset that has no basis in logic but rather is based in a deep seated hatred of cyclists by motorists not unlike some people who hate other people for having a different color of skin and is only there to "Get bicycles the &#&^&^(&( off the road and the @^%^&^*@$%@! out of our sight !!!". If a bicycle is only going 15-mph in a 25-mph zone, so what, those motorists can just learn to slow the heck down which in such areas with such low speed limits is a good idea for the safety of everyone. Where as on the other hand on high speed arterial roadways where traffic is usually moving at substantially more then 45-mph I believe FRAP for bicyclists makes the most sense and the problem is not so much with the mentality of motorists (although they still need to learn to accept cyclists occasionally needing to take the lane to pass obstructions and prepare for left hand turns) but rather with the roadway infrastructure not providing a strip of pavement in good condition and of sufficient width and reasonably free of obstructions and junk to the right of the white fog line for cyclists to ride FRAP to the right of the main traffic lanes so they do not have to try to share a lane with motorists moving at substantially higher speeds and have "their own space".

Gallo

God bless anyone that can maintain 25mph.

I cannot.

Since I am so much slower than the average cyclist I deem it appropriate to stay right so others can pass me.

As far as my riding style of staying to the right within my bike lane or what I deem reasonable being as slow as I am. I have noticed over the years that most other cyclist I have witnessed do the same. Maybe I am ignorant or just plain uneducated but it seems to me that most cyclists in my city which is rather large with what I would think is an above average cyclist population do the same, ie stay to the right. I know this not by being past by them at all times but rather me passing them as well. In fact my meager less than 25 finds me passing most cyclist I come across. There are many whom pass me as well and I would doubt that most of them maintain 25 either.

your mph might vary

edit:

Here is a stretch just less that 15 miles here locally that is rather flat the fastest time which I cannot match out of more than 1000 unique riders is 23 mph. On this road cars pass us cyclists at more than double our speed and for the most part it is two lane one north one south.

So should we take the lane and assert our rights as cyclists here?

https://www.strava.com/segments/3974280

spare_wheel

Sounds to me like the problem is not cyclists taking the lane but the fact that you live in a city the prioritizes motorist convenience over the lives and health its citizens.

Turtle Speed

Cool story, but I have no doubt that the number one thing that prevents people from biking around town is fear of motorists. I believe this because I often hear them voice it. This seems especially true for the people going around 8-12 mph. They seem particularly uncomfortable with high-speed passes at closer ranges. While you may be confident around cars, most of them are not.


So what? Tards gonna tard, cite if it really becomes necessary and move on. The other 99.9% of sharrows usage is going to be divine. The argument against all users on all sharrows because some yahoos got too rowdy on opening day is a slippery slope.


Whoooooah snap

I thought this quote from the article was the most pertinent: "This is why I don't ride a bike in the city. I'm too afraid," said Tara Werling, 18, shivering as she stood near the scene of the collision. "The bike lanes are too narrow. You're right up against the cars. If someone opens a door, you have to swerve."

turbo1889

I can't maintain 25-mph over distance either. That is one of the beautiful things about riding in-town in stop and go square grid type traffic patterns. You hardly ever get more then 5 or 6 blocks before your hit either a red light or a stop sign. Those are also known as "breather breaks". It's a series of sprints. My sustained personal speed over distance is more like 15-mph (I check my watch at the mile markers and aim for 4-minute miles) as a good solid steady pace to cover distance without wearing myself out, obviously I'm not an athlete to the point where I can run a 4-minute mile but its a good strong pace to bicycle at unless your climbing or bucking head-winds. In addition with an e-bike that is set-up with a torque sensor in the bottom bracket and a motor controller that makes it so the motor doubles or triples your output for as long as the battery lasts between charges it can make you feel two or three times stronger then you are - I can easily do 20-25 mph on a hybrid bike over sustained distance without cargo load. The numbers I give are for human pedal power only and its not unrealistic, heck I know a 50 year old lady that regularly pushes about 16-mph on a single speed heavy old cruiser bike when she tops out at about 120 RPM pedal cadence and she does that for 2-4 miles on a regular basis. I often see her and I pass her or she passes me when she is out for one of her rides (she rides for exercise not for transportation along a quite strip of country road that I use regularly as well as part of my route).

Gallo, I do think as well that you are missing the point that the OP is trying to make. He isn't suggesting that the law should be written such that all cyclists are required to take the lane. He wants the law rewritten so it is clear that they do have the right to take the lane and it is only by their own personal choice that they FRAP and they are not legally required to do so. As the FRAP laws are currently written cyclists are required to FRAP with a list of exceptions where they can "get away with" not riding FRAP and taking the lane rather then starting from the get go with the idea that cyclists do have a right to use the roads and if they FRAP they do so by their own choice. I'm one of the few on this thread that strongly feels that cyclist shouldn't ride FRAP on roads with a speed limit of 25-mph or less and and should almost always take the lane on such roads, but even I don't want the law written saying that they can't FRAP if they want to do so, just saying it shouldn't be a recommended procedure for such slow speed roadways. Heck if you look back at my older posts in this thread were I posted how I would re-write my states FRAP law if I could make it any way I wanted to I even put in specific wording that a cyclists who chose to ride FRAP on low speed roadways where it wasn't the recommended procedure could not be held responsible for collisions that could be considered to be partially the result of the cyclist riding FRAP instead of in the main lane so even I one of the strongest pro-ponents of taking the lane on low speed roads that is willing to go even further then the OP is still isn't in support of taking away your option to ride FRAP ~ we are just sick and tired of having our option to not ride FRAP and to take the lane when necessary for our own safety and ability to effectively and efficiently travel on the public right of way when we feel it is appropriate being infringed upon continuously.

turbo1889

Also,

Where the heck did this crazy idea that in order to ride on a road and make full use of the main traffic lane that you have to drive at least the speed limit come from ?!?!?!?!

Dude, the speed limit is as fast as you can legally go, not a freaking minimum and all the law breaking scum selfishly endangering the lives of others be being speed demons doesn't change that fact. I routinely drive my 2-ton heavy hauler flatbed truck in 70-mph speed limit zones at only 55-mph. Not a problem, that truck was designed to haul heavy loads while using minimal fuel and only has an in-line six cylinder engine under the hood. Yah, some idiots get upset but there is nothing illegal about only going 55-mph on a 70-mph roadway with that truck and I dare say it would be dangerous to try to drive it 70-mph (which would take going down a big hill to get it going that fast).

Why the heck would it be any different with a bicycle vehicle. Riding 15-mph or 20-mph or somewhere in that speed bracket on a 25-mph roadway is no cause for alarm or anything to get all excited about because you aren't going fast enough to use that road because you aren't going at least the speed limit. Thinking like that is a ridiculous, non-logical brain fart based on a speed demon culture problem.

Chief

What is namby-pamby riding so I can avoid doing it when you are in town?

buzzman

Um, I think statements like this may have prompted the discussion:


Personally, I often find it easier to move into the lane when I am closer to the speed of traffic. My commuting rides into Boston tend to be on roads with speed limits of 30 mph but traffic tends to go slower than that speed as an average (depending on the time of day) and it allows me to move into the lane. But even on those roads there are drivers who wish to reach as high a speed as possible when the road is clear, even when they will be stopping at the next light. This causes a kind of rabbit and the hare race down some roads between drivers and cyclists, who will catch up to the drivers at the next traffic light. It can be frustrating to both cyclists and drivers.


Here in Western, MA, where I am currently living and working, the roads are much less travelled- quiet, country roads but it is an illusion that these roads are "safer". Rural roads have high accident rates and a higher fatality and serious injury rate than more urban roadways.

Speed limits on the roads upon which I am currently riding are relatively high- 35- 55 mph. The road are narrow, winding and up and down with sharp changes in elevation. The road surface varies but is often patched, potholed and cracked by frost heaves.

Dogmatic principals about "taking the lane" on roads like these may not always serve the cyclist as well as a strategy that is more flexible. There are times I definitely "take the lane" even moving quite close to the center of the road and the yellow line and other times where I absolutely hug the edge of the road way.

genec

Wait a minute so what you are saying is that cyclists have to make decisions, ride flexibly and motorists have to understand that...

I have been married to the same woman for 30 years who, in spite of my constant insistence, still believes you HAVE to drive the speed limit. Imagine trying to get all motorists to think...

RobertHurst

Then you'd better figure out a way to miniaturize yourself and ride around on the front of their smart phone.

spare_wheel

I think its very amusing to follow a motorist on an arterial for a few miles and have them become increasingly agitated when they cannot drop you.

I agree. My comment was not intended to be dogmatic.

buzzman

I didn't take it as such. I was speaking generally.

I think what I am saying is "common sense" but I think we can tend to get a bit "rule based". I have found that some of my worst encounters with motorists were times when they were not behaving according to the rules and rather than simply making an adjustment I adhered to the rules with an expectation they would do likewise. In most cases the drivers give way and comply but there are times when their driving is compromised by inattention, drugs, alcohol, exhaustion, aggression etc. and at those times cyclists must be super vigilant and ready to move to wherever they need to be on (or off) the road to survive.

On country roads, on holidays, late in the day or especially at night, drivers can tend to go really fast and somewhat out of control and not expect to see a cyclist in the middle of the lane as they round a corner or come up over a rise in the road. Although, I may have been taking the lane on such roads I often move far to the right as soon as I hear a car or truck approaching.

My strategies vary depending on type of road, location, traffic volume, time of day, how tired or alert I am (I get super cautious on long day rides of 100+ miles due to my own fatigue level.).

genec

Yeah that's the problem... sometimes we cyclists end up driving as bad as a motorist, eh?

Frankly on a longish ride, my levels of concentration just go right into the gutter and I end up riding in a rather rote manner... like forgetting to check my mirror every .3 seconds or forgetting to maintain fighter pilot like intensity...