bhikkhu

One problem is that dogs are about as variable as people, and you can't really predict what one will do. But there are some basic things to think about and scenarios to run through that will have you better prepared for encounters. From years of cycling and talking to people, I think being scared and not knowing how to react causes more cyclist/dog troubles than anything else.

First, most dogs are afraid of cyclists. When you hear barking, that's a dog's anxiety (which can become aggression, but not necessarily). One class of unafraid dog that causes problems on the road is the "working dog", bred to herd sheep and other animals. I run into those on occasion and they have the instinctual response of running alongside with me and then veering in to head me off, threatening to bite. This is exactly what they would do herding sheep, and the threat to bite is usually empty - in the field a working dog that hurt a sheep would find itself put down very soon. I just speed up a bit and hold my line, and I've never had a problem. Of course the owner of the dog is irresponsible to allow an incident like that, but the "working dog" is just doing what comes naturally to it without intending harm.

Most other dogs are harmless when met singly off their territory. In breeding times its not unusual for otherwise happily penned dogs to escape and roam, and they are then not territorial and usually pleased to avoid people and confrontations. A dog on its territory (including its "owner" as territory) barks to warn people off; its job is done when you are heading the other way. A dog off its territory generally barks out of fear, and ignoring it is usually enough (that is - no eye contact, no hesitation or response that could be seen as fear).

The one situation that is bad is if you come across two or more dogs that have "packed up", or reverted to instinctive behavior more appropriate to their wolf ancestors. Collectively, they control and manage their prey by barking and "herding", and can lose all sense of deference to humans. These are still prone to fear, and it is still best to show no response indicative of fear, but it is also good to find the quickest way out of there - your bike is faster than they are.

The one other thing is that some dog breeds are just borderline nuts. Pit bulls and Rottweilers shouldn't ever be trusted, whether singly or together, and if I found a cycling route that took me past where some lived I would change my route to avoid them. On the other hand there is a route I like that goes by a "working dog", that likes to crouch by the road and give chase but is essentially just playing. I don't stop and try to be friendly, but I always laugh at that one and almost look forward to giving him a bit of a work out.

Most dogs were built for a hard life, and suffer from boredom and chronic lack of exercise more than people do. I can't say I like dogs myself, but years of delivering newspapers and riding out in farm country has made me pretty familiar with them. I don't carry pepper spray, but its probably not a bad idea.

photoassign

Nice observational write-up, bhikkhu. Thanks for sharing.

john bono

That's not true, not by a long shot. A barking dog could be dominant and aggressive, fear-aggressive, and just playful. Unless you see the body language that accompanies the bark, I wouldn't make any judgments regarding the dog's propensity to bite at all. A fear aggressive dog is more likely to retreat than chase. A dominant aggressive dog(hard stare, standing stiffly, ears forward, tail wagging stiffly and hair is not necessarily on end) is likely to chase, and a playful dog is likely to chase as well. And playful dogs can bite. No, they won't draw blood, but they can bite and give a nasty little pinch. It's called being "mouthy." I see mouthy dogs all the time at the shelter. No ill intent behind it, and it doesn't break the skin, but to the uninitiated, it can be pretty jarring.

That's just plain wrong. Of course herding dogs bite. If sheep doesn't do what the dog wants them to do, they'll go right for the ankles of the animal, or your heels/wheel when pedaling. Shepherds and Collies are notorious for herding anything they see, and they herd by chasing and biting the ankles of other dogs, people, you name it. How hard they bite depends on their bite reflex. Usually in the process of herding it isn't a bite that is going to draw blood, but even a hard pinch can be enough to throw off a rider's balance. They aren't going to bite and hold, like one of the bulldog breeds, it will be more of a slashing type bite. And those breeds include German Shepherds. People think of them as guard dogs, but they are really a sheepdog that moonlights as a guard dog.

Once the prey/chase drive is triggered all bets are off. And that drive can be triggered at any time in any dog. All they need is to see someone riding away from them.

Not necessarily. Northern breeds(Huskies, etc) can keep up a 15 mph pace going for quite a long time. Fine if you are on a road bike on a flat, not so good on a hill or a mtn bike or hybrid. It may be that the only way do defend yourself is to stop and get off the bike, and show yourself to be a person, stand tall, and give off a dominant vibe. That depends on the number of dogs, etc. YMMV.

Again, you'd be wrong. Pits are among the least human-aggressive breeds out there. It's a side effect of them being bred for fighting. In a dog-fighting pit, the handlers would need to be able to break up a fight, as a result any dogs that redirected aggression on people were put down. Because of this, human aggression is considered a serious fault in pit bull temperament, and a human-aggressive pit should be euthanized. That's not necessarily the case with other breeds, like bullmastiffs, dobermans, or other guard type breeds.

Nonetheless, it is prudent to consider any large dog potentially human-aggressive, especially if you don't know the dog beforehand. People have been killed by cute cuddly Golden Retrievers, Labs, and Huskies, all of which are large enough and have jaws powerful enough to crush bone.

True, a tired dog is a happy dog, for the most part but a lot of your advice is wrong. Relatively speaking, I'm not a dog expert, but in the past year volunteering at an animal shelter I've handled about one hundred different dogs, and about a dozen pits. I've seen fence-fighting, chasing, fear aggression towards people, dominant aggression towards other dogs, mouthiness etc.

Roody

It's nice to have so much information from Bhikkhu and john bono. I hope you will answer questions.

What about a female dog with pups? I came across this in a remote forest while mountain biking. It was clearly a wild dog, but not a coyote or fox. Luckily I saw her before she saw me and I circled back to a different trail. I'm such a chicken**** that I avoided that trail for the rest of the summer! How dangerous is a female with puppies?

Doohickie

O Hai guyz!

Ummmm... This would be great information to post on my Bicycle Commuting Blog. Would it be possible for either: (1) me to copy the information to my blog (crediting you and this thread, of course), (2) either or both of you to become contributors to my blog and post the information yourselves?

Doohickie

I pass a dog regularly that falls into that category. He's fenced, though, but when I first encountered him he would run to the corner of his yard and bark at me heartily. I started calling out to him, saying hi, calling him a good boy, and generally looked forward to the contact with him. At this point, though, I've become part of his world and he doesn't even chase me anymore.... Oh well.

Yeah, or just do something totally unpredictable. I saw a dog who seemed to be ignoring me first, then suddenly broke toward me at a run. I braked hard intending to jump off my bike and put the bike between the dog and myself. Instead I ended up falling off the bike and falling into a crumpled heap. I bounced up as quickly as I could but by then the dog had retreated to his yard and was barking at me from the corner of it closest to me. I think I freaked him out a lot more than he did me.

bhikkhu

...well....it it possible that I'm generally just wrong about dogs, but rather than argue (and I can be as argumentative as the next guy!) I'd just add that what I wrote was based upon 35 years of dealing with dogs, and I tend to believe what I've learned from experience before what someone tells me.

In any case, perhaps your perspective is as useful to you as mine is to me, and I imagine it also derives from experience.

Primarily I would say that if you know something about dogs in general - the habits of different breeds, and how their behavior differs depending on whether they are on or off their territory, for instance - then you can behave with some confidence and avoid harm. Too many people are afraid of dogs because they don't know what to expect from them, and then they "broadcast" their fear, which is usually the worst thing to do.

jakub.ner

I found both your posts a very interesting read. We have two greyhounds. I read both your posts to my wife and it's probably the first time she showed an interest in something bike related .

Thanks,
- Jakub

bhikkhu

any copying, crossposting or anything is fine by me - thanks!

Roody

My adult stepson, Jerry, was attacked by a pit bull while riding his bike. (The thread about it has some interesting comments.) He ended up having to have rabies shots because they couldn't find the dog. He was also banged up some in the fall from his bike during the attack.

Pit bulls evidently don't let go when they bite you. Jerry said the dog just kept his arm clamped in his mouth and shook it. Jerry got the dog to let go by squeezing its testicles.

Do you guys have any other ideas for self-defense, once a dog actually does attack you? Is it ever a good idea to run away, fight back or just play dead? Should you try to calm the dog, frighten it, dominate it?

bhikkhu

[QUOTE=Roody;8283454
Do you guys have any other ideas for self-defense, once a dog actually does attack you? Is it ever a good idea to run away, fight back or just play dead? Should you try to calm the dog, frighten it, dominate it?[/QUOTE]

The grabbing it by the testicles is a pretty good one I probably wouldn't have thought of...I think if it comes to that there's no one good answer. Delivering papers as a kid I just tried to be smooth and confident when unavoidably trespassing on a dog's territory. I'd deliver the paper and leave, sometimes backing away calmly rather than turning my back. Sometimes if it was a gangly scared dog that might be unpredictable I'd just be all intimidating myself - waving papers and yelling, but still doing the job and leaving before it had much time to think. I never got bit, or even close. I think most dogs are satisfied if you leave their territory in good time, and if you do it every morning they just get used to the routine, they bark and bark and then stop when you're gone.
On a bike I wouldn't plan on being around long enough to calm a dog. Given no options of riding away, such as cornered by a Rottweiler, I've heard that calmly walking away, keeping the bike between you and the dog, is about the best way. Emphasis on calm, as dogs are supposed to be experts at picking up cues for their own behavior from their opponent.

On the bike the scariest thing most people are likely to come across is the herding dog, and in my area the border collie seems to be a very popular breed. One of the reasons I wrote was that I got "herded" again the other day by a new dog on the MUP, again just holding my line and moving along. I asked a guy I know who used to have a ranch here and he said not to worry about it - even if it got hold of me those dogs know exactly how hard they're biting, and they don't break skin. I keep too fast a cadence for that anyway, but I think the most dangerous thing is the surprise factor, and then the fear of being bit, which together can lead to a crash. I was expecting the veer-in last time and it was no big deal.

john bono

I read the thread. My guess is that initially, the dog didn't even see your stepson as a person, just a fast moving thing that would be fun to chase and take down. The willingness to hold on for dear life isn't just a pit bull thing, that's something that is pretty common either as a terrier trait or a bulldog trait, I'm not sure which(Pit Bulls Terriers have a paw in both camps). How severe were the bite injuries? Did they require stitches? From the incident, I'm not sure it was a full on attack, though the bite sounds par for the course from a bully breed. Pits have an extreme tolerance for pain, and are

Also, there is a decent chance it wasn't a pit, but some other bully breed. I doubt either your son or the Animal Control Officer would be able to say for sure what breed the dog was. There are a bunch of "find the pit bull" websites, and even though I've been actively looking to adopt some sort of bully breed, I've gotten the selection wrong more often than not.

The worst thing to do is to run. That sets the dog's prey drive off. Trying to dominate a dog can backfire too, especially if the dog is from one of the power breeds like a Chow, Rottie, Akita, German Shepherd, etc. The best thing to do is to give off a confident vibe without trying to dominate the dog, and back slowly away. Don't act like the guy in the bar with beer muscles. Use the bike as a barrier between you and the dog.

Ichi-Go

I normally slow down if I think the dog is chasing me to chase me and the owners are close by to stop the down. Sometimes if Im going strong I just sprint away hoping the dog cant do 20+ for an extended period of time.

Tommyr

Stick your fingers in it's eye sockets. I will kick and/or punch a dog that attacks me and my aim is to kill it.

If I am bitten I will punch it's head and face until it no longer moves.

Dogs should not be loose anyway in most places. There are laws against it.

You have to do WHATEVER you can to PROTECT YOU.

Liberals need not respond.

JinbaIttai

I suppose that would work. I don't see the value of posting techniques like this in a dog psychology thread though. I could see how someone would call this trolling...

Tommyr

Well listen, do you want to avoid injury (in a pit bulls case maybe worse) or have a chat with the dog and try to control it's anger and feelings?


Trolling? Afraid not. Maybe you need to learn what that is.

jakub.ner

Saw some documentary a while back where a guy regularly has to break off dog fights in his kennel. He has German Shepherds. He said to go for the hind legs and pull the dog with the hind legs such that it has to walk backwards. I believe this is just to get control of the situation.

Keith99

Very. Unless you are known to her and trusted.

But I've never heard of a case of a mother of any species being agressive other than in protecting the pups. So there is a good side, get away from the pups and she is not going to follow.

Keith99

Exellent advice.

Also pay attention to how the dog reacts. Territorialism may be an issue, make sure yuo are going out of his territory, not into it.

One incident that happened with my dog might illustrate. When we first moved in and first had him we had 2 rooms painted, a dining room and the master bedroom. The dining room was done first and the painter had no problems. But when he headed towards the bedrooms the dog nipped at him.

The painter actually was the one who noticed the difference. The dining room was part of the 'public' part of the house. People who act like they belong are fine there. The bedrooms are a different story, strangers not allowed.

Same kind of thing can happen outside, be alert.

Pat

I do not think that the threat from dogs should be minimized.

From what I have seen, dogs pose a bigger threat by getting in front of a cyclist, being t boned and the cyclist flipping and landing on their head. I have seen this happen 3 times. In each case, the cyclist went unconscious and suffered a concussion. Any one of the cyclists could have been killed. In each case, the dog launched itself from cover and the cyclist could not have avoided the collision.

I have been bitten twice by dogs whilst on my bicycle and neither bite was serious.

I consider bites to be far less serious a threat than collisions.

Also another thing to consider, what kind of dog owner allows their dog the freedom to way lay people on the public roads? I will tell you what kind. A monumentally irresponsible owner. Irresponsible dog owners quite likely own dogs that are unpredictable and possibly dangerously aggressive.

Dogs out on the roads are not well behaved pets and should not be regarded as such.

bhikkhu

I agree that dangers of dogs to cyclists should be taken seriously, rather than minimized. My perspective was meant to reduce the primary danger - fear - and so reduce problems. Encountering a dog on its own territory, for instance, the danger is very real but fear is the last thing you want to show.

The other circumstance is what you described above - you say that you saw dogs launch themselves from cover three times and stop in front of cyclists, causing themselves to be hit and the cyclists to crash. I've never witnessed this myself. What I have seen many times, and experienced myself many times, is dogs rushing from cover in front of me or veering into me from the side as if to head me off or stop me. It is hard to get past the fear of surprise, much less the fear of a sometimes large and hungry dog seeming to attack, but this is a different sort of thing. A dog in this circumstance is not behaving territorially but instinctually, attempting to "herd" the cyclist. In every case I have held my line, in every case the dog has backed off, and in every case I have been able to continue with my ride. The greatest danger is that fear of the dog's behavior will cause the cyclist to crash, but I just have to advise what has worked for me many times: hold your line and the dog will get yield. I've never met a suicidal one yet, any more than they let themselves be trampled in the field by animals.

Irresponsible owners are certainly also involved, but where I live in old farm and ranch territory there are far more dog lovers than bicyclists.