mr_bill

I'm guessing Rampart or Basin? Glad you two didn't end up at the Foot of Canal Street.

(BTW, on some fixies the rider has to stand up to stop. Me, I'm a redundant systems type of person, but drawing the line at belt and suspenders though.)

-mr. bill

JoeyBike

Basin & Canal Exactly the shot from this Google Street View link. We were in the left lane between the cross streets. 5:15 PM on a weekday. And the crowd went wild!

KingstonWheels

I think a large proportion of the problem of raging road users is the fact people seem to get so uppidy about what others are doing. Unless it has directly harmed your journey to work I cannot see the problem. If someone decides to go through a red light, weave in and out of traffic, snake past me, etc, unless they have actually risked my life doing it, I really don't care. I don't care if they dress like they are in the Tour de France or have stepped off a hipster catwalk, if they wear cleats, wellies, trainers, naked, if they seem too slow, too fast, too wobbly, its something we all need to let go. Some people are starting out, some people do a huge amount of cycle training and racing so enjoy whizzing through the traffic system. Why are we so judgmental of others? Cycling is such a happy pursuit. Just chill out a bit and live and let live. Not everyone does things the same way as yourself; when you accept that and stop getting caught up in what others are doing and trying to control it then you will enjoy your cycles more.

Sullalto

Like most, I don't even slow down for the top of T intersections.

There are a several intersections where I won't trigger the sensor, and during the time of my commute, there isn't any reliable traffic. I'll hit the crosswalk buttons, and take a drink. The ones without crosswalk buttons for whatever reason? Yeah, I run those. I treat them like 4-way stops.

ZmanKC

I did that last weekend when I drove from KC to St. Paul, MN to pick my daughter up at college. I could count the number of vehicles I passed on on ten fingers. Most all passed me and many passed me as if I was standing still.

JoeyBike

Sounds about right.

The one correction I would like to make is...if you set your cruise at EXACTLY the limit, then you will never catch up with other law abiding vehicles doing same, and they wont pass you either. So there is an "invisible" population that you could not get into the count. I think setting the cruise at about 3 MPH over the limit would make some of those other law abiders countable as "cars you passed". You will still nab all of the speeders because generally no one drives 3 over the limit. It's either 5+ over or exactly the limit in my experience.

But anyway, you get my point. The vast majority of motorists break the law when they can get away with it. So why do I have to be an angel under circumstances I believe put me in grave danger on my bicycle to appease them?

kickstart

To use that excuse as a justification, one must pretend that traveling with the flow of traffic is as dangerous as crossing through the flow of traffic. Another thing to consider, most speed limits are based on the 85th percentile with the expectation that 15% will go faster, controlled intersections are based on expectation of 100% compliance.
Running a signal and stopping at one both have the potential to be dangerous, but to say the high risk choice is the best way to avoid a low risk one stretches credulity to the limit, avoiding actual danger isn't the same as avoiding the perceived possibility of danger.

The idea that one must behave in a certain way just because they're riding a bicycle is ridiculous, but at least giving some consideration to how our actions will be perceived by others is in our best interest.
If ones behavior consistently draws negative reactions from others it should be obvious that they're not riding in a reasonable manner, and no amount of excuses or justifications will change that.

JoeyBike

Exactly.

Where I commute the #1 danger by far is getting run over from behind. #2 is getting punched in the throat while stopped at an intersection and robbed, perhaps assaulted further. Somewhere way down the PERCEIVED danger list is crossing the street after looking both ways.

By keeping on the move I drastically decrease the number of motor vehicles passing me, sometimes down to zero AND at the same time address the little problem we have here in New Orleans of assault and battery accompanied by theft and possible death. As an added bonus, not only do I get where I am going faster, safer, and with less anxiety but motorists almost never have to wait behind me or figure out how to get around me. EVERYONE wins.

Bikes aren't cars. The notion that bikes should follow laws designed specifically for motor vehicles is beyond ludicrous. I can generate about 1/8 to 1/4 horsepower for about five minutes and some cars and trucks can generate as much as 500 horse power indefinitely. I am working up a sweat in 100 degree temps/100% humidity and expected to stop in direct sunlight to wait for no one at lighted intersections while the public bus next to me is cooking me with heat coming off their air conditioner compressor.

What I do in my situation is better for everyone and hurts no one except a few hypocritical, break-every-law-they-can motorists' tender sensibilities.

kickstart

I can appreciate that in your situation of riding through a ghetto changes the rules to an extent, but is that a legitimate justification to continue doing the same in all conditions and circumstances simply because you like doing it? (not saying you do, just being rethorical)

Can you appreciate what would happen if everyone chose to do as they please rather than giving others and the law equal consideration?

Astrozombie

Ahhhh you guys inspired me, the other day I came to a large intersection so I didn't want to go over and push the button as the light wasn't turning green.........so I just took it.

FBinNY 

I apologize for my part in corrupting you. OTOH as long as your over 18 and we didn't cross state lines there was no offense. Use your judgement and ride safe.

JoeyBike

Absolutely - I have great appreciation and experience in such a situation. A good test case is New Orleans. No one on a bicycle stops for red lights here, with the possible exception of a tourist or someone pulling a baby trailer. It has always been this way since I started cycling seriously in the inner city in 1970. Guess what? The sky has not fallen and cyclists aren't getting hurt running red lights. Cyclists are not getting hurt running stop signs. It's part of the culture. I actually have to wave cars through 4-way stop signs roughly half the time when they have the right-of-way and even then many refuse to go first and wave me through. They all assume cyclists are not going to stop and most don't care because it is part of the culture. And it works out for everyone in the long run.

I grew up and live in a community where cycling "anarchy" is normal and works. Sure there are motorists who get their panties wadded up watching cyclists run red lights I can't deny but the vast majority don't care and are generally grateful that they don't have to follow a cyclist away from a new green light or follow me through a string of a dozen stop signs causing them to "stop" TWICE at every one of them. Motorists have grown up learning and knowing that it is better for all of us to just let cyclists do what they do naturally.

So to answer your question: "What would happen if we all do as we please?" So long as it's consistent and hurts no one we all get used to it being the status quo and go on living our lives accordingly. Cyclists in NOLA do as they please and the community has not imploded in the least.

kickstart

you kinda dodged the real question there.

The general mayhem of major city centers don't reflect typical riding conditions, yet at the same time the behavior you say is typical in NO doesn't reflect what I have observed in any of the many major cities I have spent time in, so I question that its a good rationalization for it being a wise choice for most riders in most conditions and locations as things stand today.

I do believe the Idaho laws are reasonable and have nothing against them, but I also believe outright running of stop lights will never be a good idea for general use, or be perceived as acceptable because its in conflict with the basic rules and principals of road use by all user groups.

FBinNY 

I get your point, but OTOH, can't see the harm in a cyclist treating red lights at intersections the same what they'd treat an unmarked intersection where crossing traffic has the right of way.

Lights are installed based of the needs of motor vehicles. Decisions are based on traffic counts, speeds, and sight lines. The goal is to meter the highest flow through the intersection by allowing one direction right of way for a while, than the other. However this often leaves dead time that an experienced cyclist can safely make use of. At certain busy intersections a cyclist on the main road is safer crossing on a red when the side road is empty, than with the green where he has to contend with turning traffic in both directions.

Though the law has problems with deferring to judgement, I believe that a cautious, courteous can ignore lights much of the time without creating havoc. Notice, I said cautious, and courteous, and am not giving license to "run" lights without regard to other traffic.

bmontgomery87

I'd say most sensible riders could agree with this.
Riding into a busy intersection is stupid and definitely doesn't "help" the image of cycling in your city. But jumping lights early so you don't back up traffic, going through a hard yellow, or slowing down for a red and checking both ways before continuing on doesn't really hurt anyone. It might bunch up the panties of an SUV driving middle-aged person because they had to use their brakes, and spilled coffee on their cell phone while they were texting. But it's not causing harm to drivers that are paying attention.

I feel much safer getting in front of lights because if I time them incorrectly during a 45 mph section of my commute, I get stuck with some heavy traffic passing me.

FBinNY 

This is exactly what I'm NOT saying. If any driver has to make any adjustment because I'm going through a red light it's a 100% fail. I ONLY approving of going through a red when there's no driver needing to adjust in any way, either because there's no one there at all (best case) or when they're so far away that they couldn't hit me even if they tried.

If going through a red means a car with the right of way has to touch the brakes, it violates the Yield portion of the Idaho law, and is out of line.

As for drivers who happen to see me go while they have to wait, that's more of a jealousy question, and IME (at least in NY) not a problem. Divers here only care about what affects them directly, and aren't otherwise concerned with what others do.

kickstart

I guess this is where our opinions diverge, I'm fine with the Idaho rule for stoplights but feel outright running (proceeding without stopping) of a stoplight isn't wise for most situations.

I agree a cyclists isn't a motor vehicle or pedestrian but it seems to me that stopping for a red is like keeping right of the center line in that its one of the foundation rules of the road, and should only be breached with the utmost digression.

bmontgomery87

Sorry I guess I worded that poorly by saying they had to use their brakes. I've never blown an intersection and made someone actually need, or feel the need to, use their brakes.
I was more or less referring to my riding in general, it doesn't hurt people, but drivers get bent out of shape if they even feel like you're slowing them down. We got a few honks on Saturday while riding in downtown traffic, I had a red light ahead of me and wasn't slowing the guy down behind me, but they steel seemed to think we were.

Drivers in your city are probably much more tolerant of cycling, as they see it more and lots of people are on bikes. I'm in a much more rural area with a smaller downtown.

spare_wheel

treating signals as yields makes sense in urban centers (and open rural areas). suburbs with their high-speed multi-lane intersections are more problematic. but let's remember the usa is an urbanized nation that is rapidly becoming even more densely urbanized.

FBinNY 

Our opinions don't diverge here at all. I tried all through this thread to establish a dichotomy between "running" a light and proceeding as if there was no light and the cross street had the right of way (see my response No. 166 above). Depending on sight lines and distances, a stop may or may not be necessary, but as I posted in my last response, this is not a license to cause anybody else to make an adjustment.

In most cases, a stop or significant slowing (rolling stop) is necessary to determine if proceeding is safe, and would therefore be part and parcel of "cautious and courteous".

spare_wheel

more like loud hyper-critical realism than tolerance.

bmontgomery87

better than heavily armed rednecks in big trucks. #godblessthesouth

FBinNY 

This may be true, but living on the fringe where urban turns suburban, I believe it may be just the opposite.

Urban intersections tend to be busy at all times, with lights often barely allowing the flushing of pent up traffic before changing. There's very little dead time where a cyclist can cross without making issues at all.

OTOH suburban intersections often involve a main road and lightly traveled crossing streets and roads. There's a light because otherwise the crossing traffic may never see an opening. A cyclist on these smaller streets will likewise not have a decent opportunity to cross the main road against the light, but one on the main road will come to many lights with no active crossing traffic, and this is where proceeding on a red will make sense.

BTW- even when there's no light I often fine that riding on the side street and having to cross a busy 4 lane avenue requires care. A safe crossing opportunity means a long enough gap in traffic in both directions at the same time, and sometimes that just doesn't happen. So I end up opting for a parallel, where the light serves to give me the opening I need.

spare_wheel

i often run lights at full speed at t or y intersections with full sight lines. after all, why not?

skill level also varies among cyclists so what seems like dangerous behavior to some is not actually that dangerous. for example, this technique is second nature for me: fake to the left, partial quick turn to the right (bail out move for oncoming), and then cut across intersection to the left (bail out in the center/middle lane.)

spare_wheel

when it's that congested i try to filter to the front and jump when there is a gap. (definitely a little more dangerous since sometimes oncoming traffic gets mad at the back up and guns into the interseaction on a stale yellow.)