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Helmets cramp my style

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Helmets cramp my style

Old 08-24-08, 06:33 PM
  #3751  
John C. Ratliff
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Originally Posted by twiggy_D View Post
You've contradicted yourself, anything that is going to put you into intensive care* isn't going to be a minor fall/accident, it's going to be something serious.

The sad thing is many cyclists who are hit and killed are wearing helmets, and even when they aren't wearing helmets, the cause of death tends not to be head injuries alone, but rather multiple injuries sustained over the entire body.

*btw, you've written Intensive care unit unit in your post, a common mistake, much like PIN number...
'Got any stats or sources to back this up? I'm rather skeptical of what you write here. Here is a study I have not posted before:
1: Am J Public Health. 1997 Jun;87(6):1049-52.Click here to read Click here to read Links
Injuries to bicyclists in Wuhan, People's Republic of China.
Li G, Baker SP.

Department of Health Policy and Management, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md. 21287, USA.

OBJECTIVES: This study examined the morbidity and mortality from bicycling injuries in Wuhan, China. METHODS: Police department data for the year 1993 complemented by data from emergency room interviews were analyzed. RESULTS: The death rate from bicycling injuries was estimated as 2.2 per 100000 population, more than seven times the rate for the United States. At least 79% of the fatalities and 17% of the emergency room cases sustained head injuries, the majority (71%) of which resulted from contact of the head with the concrete or asphalt road. None of the patients was wearing a helmet at the time of injury, and helmet use among the general bicyclist population was nonexistent. CONCLUSIONS: Bicycle-related head injury is an important public health issue in China. The effectiveness of safety helmets in developing countries needs to be evaluated.

PMID: 9224197 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...ubmed_RVDocSum
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Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 08-24-08 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 08-24-08, 07:40 PM
  #3752  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff View Post
Actually, I think I saw helmets on the BMX bicycle races for the Olympics too. I'm pretty sure one of the spills left a competitor with a broken arm.

John
Notice they wore full-face helmets. Perhaps they take safety more seriously than the folks on this thread.
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Old 08-24-08, 07:45 PM
  #3753  
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Maybe when they are 40 feet in the air, the BMX riders need to take more precautions.

https://www.bicycle.net/2008/bmx-cycl...-olympic-debut

https://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/403759

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Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 08-24-08 at 07:56 PM. Reason: add two links
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Old 08-24-08, 07:56 PM
  #3754  
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So you are saying that people should decide for themselves how much protection is appropriate, based upon their individual situations? Welcome to the dark side.

Last edited by Six jours; 08-24-08 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 08-24-08, 07:58 PM
  #3755  
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
So you are saying that people should decide for themselves how much protection is appropriate, based upon their individual situations?

Well people SHOULD decide for themselves. That's freedom of choice. Eventually the helmet-less will be weeded out.....
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Old 08-24-08, 07:59 PM
  #3756  
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...leaving just the jackasses, apparently.
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Old 08-24-08, 08:07 PM
  #3757  
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
...leaving just the jackasses, apparently.
Yup, I guess so. Hee haw.....
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Old 08-25-08, 12:44 AM
  #3758  
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
So you are saying that people should decide for themselves how much protection is appropriate, based upon their individual situations? Welcome to the dark side.
You always base the PPE choices upon the hazard. For instance, for some airborne contaminants, a half-face respirator is appropriate, with a protection factor of 10 times the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) or Threshold Limit Value (TLV), depending upon the standard you wish to use.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/resp...e/apf/apf.html

Toluene has a TLV of 20 parts per million. A half-face respiator will protect up to 10 times that amount, or 200 ppm. But if the amount is greater, than a better respirator is needed, say a full-face respirator (protection factor, 50 times the PEL or TLV). But if you are a member of a Emergency Response Team (ERT) responding to a spill where the concentration is unknown, you will want a pressure-demand self-contained breathing apparatus with a full-face mask, which has a protection factor of 1000 times the TLV, or in this case, 20,000 ppm. But at 20,000 ppm, you are getting into another problem with the lower explosive limit, so you can only take this analogy so far.

Helmets don't come with assigned protection factors (that may be a nice idea though). So you need to make a choice about what type of protection is warranted for a particular activity. I went to the NBC Olypmic coverage, and viewed some of the BMX spills, and they do need the entire facial protection. I also watched some of the mountain biking spills, and they had some significant hits on the ground and to trees, but not on the front of the face like I saw in BMX, and not at the speeds that the BMX riders were going, or the heights of the BMX riders.

Just because there are choices to be made with what PPE to use for a particular situation doesn't mean that a choice of no PPE is warranted, based upon the risk. There is more risk of spills off a bike than for a pedestrian, although when walking in winter on ice, that helmet might not be such a bad idea for a pedestrian. One notable physician, Dr. Atkins, recently passed away from a head injury while slipping on ice:

https://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/04/17/obit.atkins/

Had Dr. Atkins been wearing a helmet for that walk, or perhaps shoe chains, we would still be hearing more about the Atkins diet.

John

Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 08-25-08 at 12:49 AM. Reason: add link to respiratory protection factors
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Old 08-25-08, 03:20 AM
  #3759  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff View Post
'Got any stats or sources to back this up? I'm rather skeptical of what you write here. Here is a study I have not posted before:

1: Am J Public Health. 1997 Jun;87(6):1049-52.Click here to read Click here to read Links
Injuries to bicyclists in Wuhan, People's Republic of China.
Li G, Baker SP.

Department of Health Policy and Management, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md. 21287, USA.

OBJECTIVES: This study examined the morbidity and mortality from bicycling injuries in Wuhan, China. METHODS: <snip>The death rate from bicycling injuries was estimated as 2.2 per 100000 population, more than seven times the rate for the United States. <snip> None of the patients was wearing a helmet at the time of injury, and helmet use among the general bicyclist population was nonexistent. CONCLUSIONS: Bicycle-related head injury is an important public health issue in China. The effectiveness of safety helmets in developing countries needs to be evaluated.

PMID: 9224197 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...ubmed_RVDocSum
John
Do you have the whole study, John? I would be interested to know if it controls for exposure. If it does not (and I've yet to see one of these types of study that does...!), and if it turns out that the average Chinese rides more than seven times the number of miles per year than the average American (which I suspect may be true), then we could conclude that helmets are leading to more fatalities in the US (where helmet wearing is at quite a high level), whereas China really has very little problem, despite its population not wearing them.

Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff View Post
Helmets don't come with assigned protection factors (that may be a nice idea though). So you need to make a choice about what type of protection is warranted for a particular activity. <snip>

Just because there are choices to be made with what PPE to use for a particular situation doesn't mean that a choice of no PPE is warranted, based upon the risk.

John
True, but just because PPE exists doesn't mean that a choice of no PPE is unwarranted either.

I like the idea of assigning protection factors to helmets, BTW. I suspect helmet manufacturers wouldn't like it much though, as it might expose how lax the standards for cycle helmets really are.
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Old 08-25-08, 06:35 AM
  #3760  
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Originally Posted by Tommyr View Post
Well people SHOULD decide for themselves. That's freedom of choice. Eventually the helmet-less will be weeded out.....
It's been over 40 years and I am still waiting to be weeded out, noob.
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Old 08-25-08, 09:10 AM
  #3761  
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Originally Posted by Ed in GA View Post
I find this absolutely amazing.

Three years, five months and 3700+ posts in this thread.

The Anti-helmet group hasn't convinced the pro-helmet group. Nor, has the pro helmet group convinced the anti-helmet group.

As I said, "amazing".
What I find amazing is that simple logic just doesn't work with some people. How can anyone claim that not wearing a helmet is better protection than wearing a helmet?

And so many seem to have forgotten the very old and the very true sayings like "It's better to err on the side of caution".

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Old 08-25-08, 01:15 PM
  #3762  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff View Post
Actually, I think I saw helmets on the BMX bicycle races for the Olympics too. I'm pretty sure one of the spills left a competitor with a broken arm.

John

Pay attention, there was a question relating to hockey, and I was pointing out how field hockey is played without protective gear (save for a few little bits).
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Old 08-25-08, 01:41 PM
  #3763  
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Originally Posted by twiggy_D View Post
Pay attention, there was a question relating to hockey, and I was pointing out how field hockey is played without protective gear (save for a few little bits).
You pay attention. This thread is about bike helmets, not hockey. I think the whole bike helmet on the BMX bikes is much more relevant.
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Old 08-25-08, 01:54 PM
  #3764  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser View Post
You pay attention. This thread is about bike helmets, not hockey. I think the whole bike helmet on the BMX bikes is much more relevant.


No

A question was asked and it needed an answer, plus it proved a point. Field Hockey uses wooden sticks, they are hard and can cause some serious hurt if you get clobbered by one.
Yet the protective gear is utterly minimal.

When I see people riding like they do at high level BMX events on the street, then I might consider them not wearing protective headgear a little dumb.

But given most cyclists ride along the road, both wheels firmly planted on the road surface, protective gear is just, well useless.

Much more useful is sticking a basket on the right side of your bike (or left if you're one of these crazy people that right on the right hand side of the road, utter nutters if you ask me)

Why's it more useful than a helmet?
People give you much more space when passing, so your basket doesn't scratch their paintwork.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:14 PM
  #3765  
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Originally Posted by twiggy_D View Post


But given most cyclists ride along the road, both wheels firmly planted on the road surface, protective gear is just, well useless.

That statement is total nonsense IMHO. The helmet CAN protect you in a fall. Period. A collision with a car at high speed probably not so much but I'd rather have it on to offer SOME kind of help than none at all. Do you have kids? If so, do you let them ride without a helmet? I sure hope not......
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Old 08-25-08, 02:15 PM
  #3766  
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Originally Posted by twiggy_D View Post


No

A question was asked and it needed an answer, plus it proved a point. Field Hockey uses wooden sticks, they are hard and can cause some serious hurt if you get clobbered by one.
Yet the protective gear is utterly minimal.

When I see people riding like they do at high level BMX events on the street, then I might consider them not wearing protective headgear a little dumb.

But given most cyclists ride along the road, both wheels firmly planted on the road surface, protective gear is just, well useless.

Much more useful is sticking a basket on the right side of your bike (or left if you're one of these crazy people that right on the right hand side of the road, utter nutters if you ask me)

Why's it more useful than a helmet?
People give you much more space when passing, so your basket doesn't scratch their paintwork.
^ Twisted sense of logic. If I were to follow your logic, I wouldn't have worn a helmet on my motorcycle because it rides on the road and has both wheels planted on the road surface.

I can tell you that I'm still here today after my crash because I wore a helmet. After seeing the sorry state my helmet was in and realized that could've been my face, I was damn happy to have worn a helmet.

Cars passing on your left is the least of your worries.

PS: A basket on the left side of my motorcycle would've been 100% less useful than my helmet in that crash.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:22 PM
  #3767  
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Originally Posted by Tommyr View Post
That statement is total nonsense IMHO. The helmet CAN protect you in a fall. Period. A collision with a car at high speed probably not so much but I'd rather have it on to offer SOME kind of help than none at all. Do you have kids? If so, do you let them ride without a helmet? I sure hope not......
My kids grew up riding without helmets (and still don't), as I and my brothers and sisters did, as my parents did, as their parents did. I don't make my grandkids wear helmets either...unless their mommy or daddy makes it clear that is a requirement they have, which they haven't. So much for all the Darwin nonsense, eh. How about worrying more about your own kids and less about those of others.

My kids are still riding their bikes as adults...are yours?
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Old 08-25-08, 02:31 PM
  #3768  
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Somebody remind me not to have Chipcom babysit my kids... when I get some.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:33 PM
  #3769  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser View Post
Somebody remind me not to have Chipcom babysit my kids... when I get some.
I had to reply just to have the quote for future reference.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:35 PM
  #3770  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
I had to reply just to have the quote for future reference.
What, to prove you're a very old man caught in 1920's mentality?
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Old 08-25-08, 02:40 PM
  #3771  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
My kids grew up riding without helmets (and still don't), as I and my brothers and sisters did, as my parents did, as their parents did. I don't make my grandkids wear helmets either...unless their mommy or daddy makes it clear that is a requirement they have, which they haven't. So much for all the Darwin nonsense, eh. How about worrying more about your own kids and less about those of others.

My kids are still riding their bikes as adults...are yours?

I don't have kids. If I did they'd be wearing them. I advocate wearing helmets even though I see a LOT of kids not wearing them. Your family is just real lucky is all.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:51 PM
  #3772  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser View Post
What, to prove you're a very old man caught in 1920's mentality?
No, for when you grow up, have kids and actually can look back and see what an arrogant idjit you are being on this particular issue.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:55 PM
  #3773  
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Originally Posted by Tommyr View Post
I don't have kids. If I did they'd be wearing them. I advocate wearing helmets even though I see a LOT of kids not wearing them. Your family is just real lucky is all.
Incorrect. Consider that the vast majority of cyclists throughout the world don't and never did wear helmets. Are they all just really lucky? FACT is, the odds of an injury that might be prevented by wearing a helmet while riding a bicycle are about the same as that of other activities that you and I do daily but do not feel the need to wear helmets for. It really is a shame to see all you people who have been so conditioned to think that cycling is SO dangerous.

Wear your helmet, we're glad that you do, nobody is telling you not to, but if you think doing so makes you smarter than anyone else, you are sadly mistaken. It just means that you fear cycling more than others. Period.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:57 PM
  #3774  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
No, for when you grow up, have kids and actually can look back and see what an arrogant idjit you are being on this particular issue.
More like how I'm right when I'm cycling around with my kids and we're all wearing helmets looking safe and cool.

Pretty soon cycling without a helmet will be similar to smoking cigarettes. '70s "cool" is out you know... has been for a while.
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Old 08-25-08, 02:58 PM
  #3775  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
Incorrect. Consider that the vast majority of cyclists throughout the world don't and never did wear helmets. Are they all just really lucky? FACT is, the odds of an injury that might be prevented by wearing a helmet while riding a bicycle are about the same as that of other activities that you and I do daily but do not feel the need to wear helmets for. It really is a shame to see all you people who have been so conditioned to think that cycling is SO dangerous.

Wear your helmet, we're glad that you do, nobody is telling you not to, but if you think doing so makes you smarter than anyone else, you are sadly mistaken. It just means that you fear cycling more than others. Period.
So? Haven't you heard? "It's better to err on the side of caution".
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