closetbiker

and yet Ian Walkers research shows motorists give cyclists wearing helmets less room when passing.

I think the pertinent point here is that it is the motorists that need to exert a level of care around cyclists that they haven't been doing. No doubt cyclists should do the same but too much emphasis is given to the helmet in place of responsible behavior.

It's also odd that the emphasis is on the helmet in collisions with motor vehicles when helmets are made for simple falls without involvement of motor vehicles.

hnsq

Is the amount of space while passing really a concern to anyone? According to Dr. Walker's reasearch, helmeted cyclists are still passed by an average of over three feet (by busses, it is closer to 4 feet for cars). Three feet is still plenty of space. Dr. Walker also stated that drivers percieve helmeted riders as more experienced and predictable, which is a good thing. Any predictabilty on the road adds to safety. It seems to me the danger is when drivers think a cyclist is going to act predictable, and they don't. I am worried about drivers pulling out quickly from stop signs, giving me a right hook, cutting me off at a light, NOT being hit while someone is passing me. I still hold that in all of those situations, the perception of an experienced rider adds to respect and safety of those on the road.

Sure, we can say drivers need to show more awareness around cyclists, but that philosophy won't save a trip to the hospital. Wearing a helmet is about safety, it seems you are talking about helmets like they are a social statement...to be honest I don't understand that. Going without a helmet because cars SHOULD be more responsible isn't the smartest position, in my opinion.

closetbiker

but it's the collisions with motor vehicles that are the problem, and drivers need to take more care around cyclists.

The most successful way to lower injury rates is through traffic management, not helmet use.

A helmet helps in a fall to the ground, but were never made to protect in a fall after a collision with a motor vehicle

joejack951

You are confusing two kinds of "thinking." A motorist could be thinking about anything while driving whether. What they are thinking about during the periods when they aren't thinking about driving their vehicle is something you'll probably never know and really have no need to know. How they feel about whether I'm wearing a helmet or not, to me, falls into that category. I have noticed zero difference in how motorists actually drive (that other type of thinking) around me whether I'm wearing a helmet or not. They generally drive respectfully and treat me like a driver of a vehicle. Acting like a driver of a vehicle while I'm on the roads may have a lot to do with that (I like to and generally do believe it does).

And FWIW, I spend most of my time watching how a driver reacts to my presence (by watching what they do with their vehicle) as I'm approaching rather than trying count dents.

BarracksSi

Petty bull****.

Wear it right and it won't impede your vision or hearing.

Now grow up.

Dan The Man

good response

banjo_mole 

I found an old Univega stamped helmet that matches my bike.
I'm going to use it, although its protective merit is in question.

closetbiker

you do realize that a response like this only serves to lead more people to do what you do not want them to do, don't you?

hnsq

I won't tell you what to do, but watching what kind of car, what condition their car is in, etc. is very helpful. Are you telling me you assume someone driving a minivan with four kids in it is as attentive as someone in a car by themselves? It is absolutely a good thing to watch how a driver reacts to you, but there is more you can do (in my opinion).

And closetbiker, can you explain what you mean? It IS kind of a weak arguement that a bike helmet impedes hearing. I hear and see just fine while wearing my motorcycle helmet (full face) and people try to claim a bike helmet impedes my hearing? Come on...

closetbiker

Well, it might be a weak argument to you, and I've never had that problem, but I certainly have heard about that point many times, so take him at his word if you can't get inside his head.

At any rate, I think the point made in my second argument linked bears reviewing

Dan The Man

I have repeated this twice now. I never once ever said that a bicycle impedes hearing. I said it impedes the localization of sound. The ability to tell where a sound is coming from. The same is true for your motorcycle helmet. The ability to gauge the direction and distance of that revving engine is very important on busy city streets with hundreds of sounds coming at you.

closetbiker

and this is why I never wear headphones while riding.

I know there are a lot of people who say they don't need ears to be safe but to me (and I was a musician for years, so maybe I have a higher awarness of the sublties of various sounds) that identification of localization of certain types of sounds have bailed me out many times.

Most often in typical right hook situations a motor vehicle can come up from behind me, slow up for the turn and I've picked it up via my ears far in advance of my eyes.

I can't imagine that a motorcycle helmet doesn't make things much quieter inside. The differring speeds between bikes and motor cycles also has it's effects.

I don't find wearing a helmet has any effect on my hearing but I wouldn't dismiss that it does for others.

For me, I just don't see any evidence that wearing a helmet makes any injury difference in what is important to me. It might for others, but not for me

joejack951

Why would I spend so much time trying to figure out who is in a car that I'm approaching? If they aren't moving, they aren't moving, etc. With all the tinted windows out there, it's next to impossible to determine who's in a car anyway. What little I can glean from the look on a driver's face tells me very little about how attentive they are.

hnsq

To each his own...I am just saying, what car someone drives says a lot about them (no one who street races drives a volvo). It is something I pay attention to

I-Like-To-Bike

You must pay a lot of attention to automotive advertising/marketing campaigns too.

hnsq

I studied advertising a bit in college, and people buy on perception much more than the actual product. It doesn't make much research, just as you said, you need to pay attention.

closetbiker

just as they buy into the perception that a helmet provides safety without actually understanding if that's the case?

joejack951

Wow, I had no idea something relevant to this thread would actually come out of our side discussion. Nice job weaving the two together.

closetbiker

I've brought the point up in the past, but with a thread as long as this is, it'd be easy to miss.

Basic sales is to create a demand by creating a need.

It doesn't have to be a real need, just a perceived need.

*the relevance directly relates to the original post. Mentioning that children have more sense than the women is based on the perception of safety.

Ironically, women as a group injure themselves far less than children, even without helmets, because their behavior is safer. That's reality, not perception.*

joejack951

Hmmm, might want to clear some more mind space for paying attention out on the road. There are plenty of high performance Volvo's: https://www.t5r.org/pages/frameset.htm

hnsq

Obviously those are generalizations and not hard set rules. When I am on the road, I pay attention to these things instead of what I am going to eat for lunch, what my day at work will be like, etc. It isn't all that difficult to pay attention to the road plus the vehicles people drive. Personally, I check to see if there is someone sitting in the driver's seat of every car parked on the side of the road in case one is about to pull out in front of me. It isn't that hard to pay attention to these things. Perception is key to safety, and in American culture people percieve people with helmets as safer and more responsible.

I need to 'clear some mind space for paying attention'? If you aren't paying attention to these things on the road, what exactly are you thinking about? This is exactly what I am doing. I am able to pay attention to more than the car in front of and behind me.

Zeuser

That's just it! You've just validate the reason to wear a helmet; to protect you in a fall.

Car collisions are a whole different matter and helmet or no helmet, the outcome will be almost identical. The relevancy of helmets in a car vs. bike situation has little to do with this thread.

What you've simply done all along in this thread amounts to nothing more than a THREAD JACK!

10 Wheels

Saw **** guy in Alvin Texas today on a 64 mille ride. No Straps Needed, Neck Mount:

Six jours

Zeuser, out for a ride with his father. Touching.

Tommyr

I'm sorry but that is friggin' ******ed. Un-responsible IMHO.