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Helmets cramp my style

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Helmets cramp my style

Old 02-01-07, 03:25 PM
  #1151  
crtreedude 
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Originally Posted by chipcom
You just ride where you feel the most comfortable and don't pay no mind to the 'serious cyclists' who think they know it all. I prefer to ride the roads...peds scare me more than cars!
+1

The peds just walk right out in front of me all the time. I even have them look straight at me, look away and step in front of destruction!
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Old 02-01-07, 03:32 PM
  #1152  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
You might be interested to know that a helmet's use in collision with a car is more than extremely limited. The most quoted study on the effectiveness of bicycle helmets in prevention of injury (TRT New England journal of medicine 1989 report) had no cases involving collisions with automobiles.

Helmets are made for simple falls, with no forward momentum from a distance of 6 feet. Now if you consider that these types of falls might be what you are worried about, and the thought of a bump, laceration or road rash on the top third of your head needs some mitigation, a helmet might be for you. If, as you have indicated, a collision with a car is what your primary worry is, then a different approach might be more beneficial in preventing injury, like maybe say, collision avoidance.

Try https://www.bicyclesafe.com/index.html
Sounds like more reason to not ride in the street
thank you for your concern, and I will look into the site. however you almost make it sound like a helmet serves little purpose in a collision, though of course that's not how it was meant (I'm assuming). Sure, you get hit by a car fast enough you're going to have broken bones and internal bleeding at least. However I'd rather have a few concussions or the like and a shattered helmet, as opposed to a shattered skull.
Back in gradeschool a friend of mine was hit by a car. His body hit the ground, but his head slammed into the bumper of a parked car. He ended up with a few bruised bones, a little roadrash, and a coma for 3 days. If he wasn't wearing his helmet....yeah, I would rather not think about that.

Last edited by MSUcommuter; 02-01-07 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 02-02-07, 01:30 AM
  #1153  
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Originally Posted by MSUcommuter
Sounds like more reason to not ride in the street ...Back in gradeschool a friend of mine... If he wasn't wearing his helmet....yeah, I would rather not think about that.
I'd suggest reading that page I gave and considering you mentioned you are a sidewalk rider, pay attention the advice to not ride on the sidewalk in collision types #4, 6 and #9.

Considering that 98 to 99% of head injury victims that are treated by a doctor were not riding bicycles, you could ask yourself who could benefit from wearing helmets just as much as cyclists and also ask yourself why it is attitudes are the way they are.

Last edited by closetbiker; 02-02-07 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 02-02-07, 06:36 PM
  #1154  
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I've worn a helmet since 1985. been bike commuting for that long and have never had to test it on the street. Wrote of a helmet cross countrying when I ducked under a low branch an the two snapped of branch stubs speared me in the helmet and took me off the back of my bike. Would have been scalped if I was not wearing a lid. Another time had a guy gone of his meds hit me in head with a bottle cause he thought I looked like a MTB cop. Took 5 cops to get him in paddy wagon for trip to psych hospital.
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Old 02-03-07, 10:41 AM
  #1155  
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Originally Posted by RomSpaceKnight
... Would have been scalped if I was not wearing a lid. ...
from:

https://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/helmets.html

When we decided it was time to dust off our old bicycle and do some cycling again, one thing that's changed quite a bit in the last ten years is the number of people who wear crash helmets. We were rather surprised by this movement toward helmets, as we'd been involved in plenty of bicycle crashes during our misspent youth and can't remember any where a helmet would have done us any good.

So we thought we'd cast aside all the "it just makes sense" and "if just one life is saved" rubbish and find some real, hard numbers to evaluate the effectiveness of crash helmets, and then we thought it'd be extra fun to compare those numbers against other modes of personal transportation to see where bicycling fits in with the bigger picture...

Bicycling is so dangerous that you'd be crazy to ride without a helmet? Hardly. In the real world, biking is no more dangerous than taking the dog for a walk, and often even safer. But we're pretty sure that helmet manufacturers are enjoying this new trend immensely. We wonder what walking helmets will cost...For once we'd like to hear the helmet lobby say something like, "Hey, this activity is really, really safe, especially for sober adults. We've got the helmets if you consider yourself at high risk." Instead they sell millions of helmets by claiming the sky is falling. Is it any wonder some of us are skeptical of the altruism?

Of course, it's up to each cyclist to determine how his exposure to risk -- and tolerance for risk -- matches up with the level of risk for the general population. Frankly, we started this search for data expecting the numbers to be much higher than they are. But it turns out we're talking about a few thousand injuries out of 3,000,000,000 miles cycled every year. With odds like that we feel no more need for a helmet than we feel the need to strap a lightning rod to our shorts.

But then again, we don't bother playing the lottery either.
I love that,

we feel no more need for a helmet than we feel the need to strap a lightning rod to our shorts bit.

(On the page he also mentions, "On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning")

Last edited by closetbiker; 02-03-07 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 02-04-07, 12:17 AM
  #1156  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
from:

https://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/helmets.html



I love that,

we feel no more need for a helmet than we feel the need to strap a lightning rod to our shorts bit.

(On the page he also mentions, "On a per-capita basis, the odds of being killed while riding a bicycle are nearly the same as the odds of being killed by a bolt of lightning")
Well, Closetbiker is at it again, citing a web page which says a lot about statistics without citing any references at all to support the numbers on the page. There is nothing on that page that shows where those numbers came from. So, if there is no citation that I can go to and varify the numbers used, the web page shown above is useless. But it is interesting that this paragraph is cited:

Of course, it's up to each cyclist to determine how his exposure to risk -- and tolerance for risk -- matches up with the level of risk for the general population. Frankly, we started this search for data expecting the numbers to be much higher than they are. But it turns out we're talking about a few thousand injuries out of 3,000,000,000 miles cycled every year. With odds like that we feel no more need for a helmet than we feel the need to strap a lightning rod to our shorts.
This is from: https://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/helmets.html

Remember, anyone can write just about anything on the internet. This is not a peer-reviewed article, but comes out of someone's overactive imagination. For instance, a few thousand injuries out of 3 billion miles cycled every year? Three billion??? That's a 3 with 9 zeros behind it. A few thousand injuries? A few thousand injuries in 3 billions miles ridden??? Somehow, I don't think so. In the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control, 600,000 people are treated in emergency departments for bicycle-related injuries, and 824 die from this type of injury. Here is what the CDC states about their year 2000 plan:

Bicycle Helmet Usage and Head Injury Prevention

Bicycle riding is a popular American past time. An estimated 66.9 million Americans ride bicycles and about 29 percent of U.S. households have one or more bicyclists. Bicycle riding also has accompanying risks. Each year over 600,000 people are treated in emergency departments (EDs) for bicycle-related injuries and 824 die from this type of injury. Head injury is the most common cause of death and serious disability in bicycle-related crashes; head injuries are involved in about 60 percent of the deaths, and 30 percent of the bicycle-related ED visits. Many of these nonfatal head injuries produce lifelong disability from irreversible brain damage. Societal costs associated with bicycle-related head injury or death resulting from head injury were more than $3 billion annually.

American children, in particular, are avid bicyclists--an estimated 33 million children ride bicycles nearly 10 billion hours each year. Unfortunately, an average of 384 children die annually from bicycle crashes, and 450,000 more are treated in EDs for bicycle-riding related injuries. Each year about 153,000 children get treatment in hospital emergency departments for bicycle-related head injuries.

Bicycle helmets are a proven intervention that reduce the risk of bicycle-related head injury by about 80 percent, yet bicycle helmets are not worn by most riders. Only 19 percent of adults and 15 percent of children use helmets all or most of the time while cycling. Universal use of bicycle helmets by children aged 4 through 15 years old would prevent between 135 and 155 deaths, between 39,000 and 45,000 head injuries, and between 18,000 and 55,000 scalp and face injuries annually.

At the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the Division of Unintentional Injury Prevention (DUIP) works to prevent these injuries and deaths by developing and disseminating injury control recommendations on bicycle helmets; collaborating with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, other federal agencies, private and voluntary agencies to promote helmet use and bicycle safety; and providing grants to state health departments to implement and evaluate programs that promote helmet use. In 1994, CDC began funding programs to promote helmet use within funded communities.

Measurable increases in helmet use has resulted from the implementation of these interventions. For example:

--In California, where the program targeted low-income school children in one city, helmet use increased from 22% in 1994 to 64% in 1996.
--In Rhode Island, where a law was passed requiring children 8 years old and younger to wear bicycle helmets, helmet use in this age group increased from 11% to 27% in the three intervention communities.
--Washington State targeted 3- to 5-year-old children in the Head Start program. The project distributed more than 11,000 helmets, and observed helmet use increased from 41% to 91%.
These outcomes serve as the basis for developing performance measures aimed at reducing the incidence and severity of injuries related to bicycle accidents by increasing the use of bicycle helmets by children.
This comes from the CDC at:

https://0-www.cdc.gov.mill1.sjlibrary...00xbicycle.htm

John
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Old 02-04-07, 09:36 AM
  #1157  
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Bicycles are dangerous. No child under 15 should be allowed to ride.

That is my opinion after reading the above CDC report. The CDC should try to prevent 600,000 injuries instead of just 824 deaths.....and it seems to be focusing on preventing just 155 of those deaths.

What about school time missed for broken limbs? A life-time of suffering from worse spinal and neck injuries? How many children are forced to undergo repeated surgeries to repair crushed bones?

Doesn't the CDC need to find a way to prevent all these injuries? Maybe trikes and training wheels should be required for riders under fifteen and no road, street, or sidewalk riding.

Sarcasm off.
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Old 02-04-07, 10:02 AM
  #1158  
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The internet gives the opportunity for all kinds of blow hards to sound off with unsubstantiated drivel. (Eh, Foghorn?)
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Old 02-04-07, 10:12 AM
  #1159  
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Originally Posted by jwc
Bicycles are dangerous. No child under 15 should be allowed to ride.
And the "dangerous" devices are just as bad for adults. Who needs 'em? Ban 'em all. Then only outlaws will be subjected to the dangers of these terrible devices.
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Old 02-04-07, 11:47 AM
  #1160  
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Be happy this is a helmet thread....In A&S admiting to riding on the sidewalk is akin to heresy and merits endless lectures on the evils of such things.

Hmm, could be a good poll question for another thread:

In A&S who is most despised?
a. Helmetless riders
b. Sidewalk riders
c. Wrong-way riders
d. Unlit riders
e. VC zealots

Or a ten paragraph lecture in the 50's forum. "Back in my day.....yada, yada yada, you organ donor".
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Old 02-04-07, 12:19 PM
  #1161  
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Originally Posted by capejohn
yada, yada yada, you organ donor".
Which brings up an interesting point. Since I so selflessly risk my impressive bod by participating in such a dangerous activity, without a helmet, in order to provide my maaavvolously superior organs to the masses, you'd think I'd be worshipped, idolized, even deified... or at least get one of them medals GWB hands out like candy to his cronies. I feel so unappreciated.
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Old 02-04-07, 12:36 PM
  #1162  
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Which brings up an interesting point. Since I so selflessly risk my impressive bod by participating in such a dangerous activity, without a helmet, in order to provide my maaavvolously superior organs to the masses, you'd think I'd be worshipped, idolized, even deified... or at least get one of them medals GWB hands out like candy to his cronies. I feel so unappreciated.
I'll buy you a beer for your liver...o, wait...how about some oat bran?
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Old 02-04-07, 02:13 PM
  #1163  
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Which brings up an interesting point. Since I so selflessly risk my impressive bod by participating in such a dangerous activity, without a helmet, in order to provide my maaavvolously superior organs to the masses, you'd think I'd be worshipped, idolized, even deified... or at least get one of them medals GWB hands out like candy to his cronies. I feel so unappreciated.
It is an interesting point and we can only dismay at the lack of the body beautiful cyclists donating organs, because there are so few of them dying.

Not only are there numerous studies that show cyclists leading longer, healthier lives, there's the info (from the above post from the CDC) showing a few hundred deaths from the tens of millions of cyclists. 33 million children riding and 384 deaths? 67 million people riding bicycles and under one thousand deaths? Wouldn't the auto industry love to have those numbers.

And while were're at it, doesn't the CDC promote hand washing to avoid spreading germs, flu shots to avoid contracting the flu, building septic systems to avoid spreading cholera?

Isn't out of character for the CDC to promote mitigation over prevention? Isn't it better to educate the public on proper road travel and promote consistent, comprehensive enforcement in order to keep people from needing the care of health professionals?

Last edited by closetbiker; 02-04-07 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 02-04-07, 04:18 PM
  #1164  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
It is an interesting point and we can only dismay at the lack of the body beautiful cyclists donating organs, because there are so few of them dying.

Not only are there numerous studies that show cyclists leading longer, healthier lives, there's the info (from the above post from the CDC) showing a few hundred deaths from the tens of millions of cyclists. 33 million children riding and 384 deaths? 67 million people riding bicycles and under one thousand deaths? Wouldn't the auto industry love to have those numbers.

And while were're at it, doesn't the CDC promote hand washing to avoid spreading germs, flu shots to avoid contracting the flu, building septic systems to avoid spreading cholera?

Isn't out of character for the CDC to promote mitigation over prevention? Isn't it better to educate the public on proper road travel and promote consistent, comprehensive enforcement in order to keep people from needing the care of health professionals?
Now, this post, I can live with. See what using a credible source does for you, Closetbiker

My focus is on preventive efforts, but I still use a helmet. I've probably made more proactive changes than the majority of writers on this forum (switching to a recumbant bicycle, for instance--less distance to fall, better visibility of the road and autos, better use of mirrors, feet-first landing, etc.). But I use sunscreen, gloves, lighting, and my helmet too.

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Old 02-04-07, 04:55 PM
  #1165  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Now, this post, I can live with. See what using a credible source does for you, Closetbiker

My focus is on preventive efforts, but I still use a helmet. I've probably made more proactive changes than the majority of writers on this forum (switching to a recumbant bicycle, for instance--less distance to fall, better visibility of the road and autos, better use of mirrors, feet-first landing, etc.).
Choose a recumbent over a standard bicycle design as a proactive safety prophylactic?

Now I've heard everything!

Wait; does it have training wheels too? You can never be too safe, eh?
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Old 02-04-07, 05:42 PM
  #1166  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Now, this post, I can live with. See what using a credible source does for you, Closetbiker
Some credible source.

67 million cyclists (33 million children, leaving 34 million adults)? 824 die from bicycle related ER visits? These are wrong numbers.

The National Bicycle Dealers Association pegs cyclists at 41 million (and there are lots of people who think that is too liberal an estimate) and the deaths rates for the US have been in the 600's for the last 4 years and hasn't topped 800 for 10 years. Where is the CDC getting it's numbers?

Reduce the risk of bicycle-related head injury by about 80 percent? I guess it's that long discredited, infamous, study. Even the authors of that study downgraded the reduction to 65%, but you never hear of that. Those who have taken the trouble to analyse the paper in detail have found it to be seriously flawed and its conclusions untenable (https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1068.html)

We both do agree in an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Last edited by closetbiker; 02-04-07 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 02-04-07, 06:33 PM
  #1167  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Now I've heard everything!
I'm sure you haven't....there's always more...its a never-ending debate.
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Old 02-05-07, 02:01 AM
  #1168  
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I haven't replied to this thread in a long long time, but let me say this; I am 45 years old, ride my bike(s) up to 10km a day (I know, not a lot, but hey sometimes its's -13f here in hogtown) and I haven't had an accident since I was 17. Common sense, practical riding and firmly standing your ground, representing your space, have a great deal to do with maintaining a safe distance between you and cars. There are times when I dodge reckless drivers, swerve to avoid distracted fools and even perform some daring maneuvers to avoid being hit, but no more so than when I drove a car all the time. Fools are fools. Some ride bikes, some drive cars. Be smart and watch everything all the time and never go faster than conditions or traffic permit. It's not that hard to figure out.
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Old 02-05-07, 07:51 AM
  #1169  
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Date discrepency

Originally Posted by closetbiker
Some credible source.

67 million cyclists (33 million children, leaving 34 million adults)? 824 die from bicycle related ER visits? These are wrong numbers.

The National Bicycle Dealers Association pegs cyclists at 41 million (and there are lots of people who think that is too liberal an estimate) and the deaths rates for the US have been in the 600's for the last 4 years and hasn't topped 800 for 10 years. Where is the CDC getting it's numbers?

Reduce the risk of bicycle-related head injury by about 80 percent? I guess it's that long discredited, infamous, study. Even the authors of that study downgraded the reduction to 65%, but you never hear of that. Those who have taken the trouble to analyse the paper in detail have found it to be seriously flawed and its conclusions untenable (https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1068.html)

We both do agree in an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Well, let's see, I was using a CDC report from the year 2000, and you cite a 1989 commentary in the New England Journal of Medicine for an even earlier paper. Maybe if you could at least get in the same time period, the numbers would be easier to describe.

The CDC seems to have a pretty good handle on the numbers of injuries reported. For instance, in the paper cited below, for Wisconsin in 2002-2004, they reported 2,046 Emergency Department visits by children <6 years old from pedal cycle accidents. Of those, 1,305 (63.8%) were head or neck injuries. If we think about how that may be in all 50 states, then you can get an idea of why the CDC was concerned. Here's the abstract:

MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2006 Dec 22;55(50):1345-8.

Measures to improve pedal-cycle safety and increase helmet use often target school-age children rather than younger children, even though preschool children wearing helmets have fewer injuries and are more likely to wear helmets in the future, compared with children who do not wear helmets. Children aged <6 years also use pedal cycles; whether they are passengers on a parent's bicycle, riding a tricycle or pedal car, or learning to ride a bicycle, these young cyclists often sustain injuries. To provide guidance for intervention strategies targeted to young children in Wisconsin, CDC and the Wisconsin Division of Public Health analyzed data collected from January 1, 2002 through December 31, 2004, from all nonfederal emergency departments (EDs) and hospitals in Wisconsin regarding pedal-cycle injuries among children aged <6 years. This report describes the results of that analysis, which indicated that, during 2002--2004, a total of 2,046 ED visits by Wisconsin residents aged <6 years for pedal-cycle injuries occurred; for 1,305 (63.8%) of these visits, the primary diagnosis was a head or neck injury. These findings underscore the need for interventions designed to reduce head and neck injuries in the youngest users of pedal cycles.
PMID: 17183225 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
You can find it at:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

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Old 02-05-07, 09:04 AM
  #1170  
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Nice to see you're at it again.

With reasoning like that, you've proved my point made several times a few pages ago about the level of debate.

Someone sould buy you a first-basemans mit.
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Old 02-05-07, 01:29 PM
  #1171  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
...because there are a lot of people who post without having the slightest iddea of what it is they're posting about. They have a feeling, they've read (or heard) some slanted information (propaganda) and believe it to be absolutely, unalterably true in all circumstances. They're sold on a concept and will fit facts to fill their argument even when they don't understand what it is they're posting about.
Closetbiker,

I believe this is the statement you spoke about a few pages ago.

I would like to point out to others reading this "debate" that Closetbiker is using a classical mis-communications when he posts. He is the authority, and he "talks down" to the others who don't agree with his statements. When research studies are presented which contradict what he is saying, and are more recent than his, he dismisses them and makes statements like the above. He is in the "Negative Controlling Parent Mode," shown below. It is a classic case of "crossed communications" under Eric Berne's ideas of "Transactianol Analysis." You can see a discussion of it here:

https://www.businessballs.com/transact.htm

and

https://www.businessballs.com/transactionalanalysis.htm

Basically, Closetbiker is being the "Parent Ego State," and declaring all who oppose him as "Child Ego State" people who simply do not understand the question. He is talking "Parent-to-Child,"' and some of us are trying to talk to him as "Adult-to-Adult." Good communication occurs when people speak "Adult-to-Adult," but that is not the way Closetbiker operates. The term, "Crossed Transaction" happens when someone speaks P-A, and the return is A-A. It looks like this

P......P
..\
A-\--A
.....\
C.....C

Under these circumstances, no communication actually occurs. I post these studies, not to debate Closetbiker, but to provide a counterbalance to his adult to child rants against helmets.

John
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Old 02-05-07, 01:44 PM
  #1172  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Closetbiker,

I believe this is the statement you spoke about a few pages ago.
no, it's not.

Watch Studio 60 tonight and listen to what D.L. Hughleys' character says about his hate mail, and you might get it (but I doubt it).
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Old 02-05-07, 02:09 PM
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'Sorry, but I'm studying tonight (Biostatistics).

John
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Old 02-05-07, 05:08 PM
  #1174  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
'Sorry, but I'm studying tonight (Biostatistics).

John
I just remembered the quote

"I love my hate mail. You gotta learn to love 'em as much as I do. I love seein' how stupid my haters are and not one of them can spell 'spear chucker' with a crayon."
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Old 02-05-07, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
I just remembered the quote

"I love my hate mail. You gotta learn to love 'em as much as I do. I love seein' how stupid my haters are and not one of them can spell 'spear chucker' with a crayon."
Does anyone see a "parent--child" communication here?

Closetbiker, I am taking a graduate school class in biostatistics (and another in radiological health), and have a midterm exam on Wednesday on the biostatistics. I will be studying tonight.

Enjoy,

John

Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 02-05-07 at 07:37 PM.
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