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Helmets cramp my style

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Helmets cramp my style

Old 05-09-07, 08:58 AM
  #1376  
closetbiker
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Well John, how would you explain that unhelemted cyclists in the Netherlands suffer almost no head injuries in comparrisons to helmeted riders in the US who suffer far more head injuries?

You're missing the mark, not seeing obvious problems and not addressing the few basic issues that I've repeatedly brought up.
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Old 05-09-07, 12:18 PM
  #1377  
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Netherlands study by Macpherson, et. al.

Closetbiker,

Post the study comparing head injuries in the Netherlands with those in the USA, and I'll respond.

Originally Posted by Closetbiker
You're missing the mark, not seeing obvious problems and not addressing the few basic issues that I've repeatedly brought up.
Ditto for you.

By the way, what have they done in the Netherlands to reduce the number of head injuries. According to this study, they had a lot of them in the 1990s.
1: Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 1994 Nov 12;138(46):2315-8. Links
[Bicycle accidents in children in The Netherlands in 1990/1991; time for bicycle helmets][Article in Dutch]
Hirasing RA, Verloove-Vanhorick SP, van Kampen LT.
TNO Preventie en Gezondheid, Leiden.

OBJECTIVE. To assess the possibility of preventing consequences of bicycle accidents. DESIGN. Retrospective study. SETTING. The Netherlands. MATERIAL AND METHOD. The data on mortality and hospital admissions of children aged 0-14 years were analysed. The data on traffic accident fatalities were obtained from the Traffic Accidents Registration (for 1991) and those on admissions from the Dutch Centre for Health Care Information (for 1990). RESULTS. In 1991, 82 children (1-14 years) died from the consequences of a traffic accident. Most died after a bicycle accident. The number of hospital admissions because of traffic accidents in the age group 0-14 years in 1990 amounted to 2839, of which 46% were due to a bicycle accident. Most of the children aged 0-14 years admitted because of bicycle accidents had head and skull injuries. In 69% of the bicycle accidents no motor vehicle was involved. CONCLUSION. Because of the high frequency of head injuries, wearing a bicycle helmet should be promoted strongly, legal obligation giving the fastest and best results. Several prevention strategies are discussed. (Emphasis added, jcr)

PMID: 7969627 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum


So, Closetbiker, please show me this study showing a lesser rate of head injuries in The Netherlands verses the United States. Maybe we can learn something from the measures that they have implemented.

John

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Old 05-09-07, 01:20 PM
  #1378  
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In the Netherlands, city dwellers travel by bike more than 25 percent of the time, according to a 2000 study at Rutgers University. For each 100 million of those trips, 1.6 Dutch cyclists were killed in accidents in 1995. By contrast, U.S. city dwellers travel by bike less than 1 percent of the time and die at a much higher rate when they do: 26.3 bike fatalities for every 100 million trips, according to the same study.

One recent study with a Setting at Copenhagen University Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark (where almost no one wears helmets) concluded: "Even after adjustment for other risk factors, including leisure time physical activity, those who did not cycle to work experienced a 39% higher mortality rate than those who did."
The source for the quote is "All-Cause Mortality Associated With Physical Activity During Leisure Time, Work, Sports, and Cycling to Work"

and,

Bicycle use and safety in Paris, Boston and Amsterdam by Scott Osberg, Ph.D., and Sarah C. Stiles, Ph.D., J.D., Department of physical medicine and rehabilitation, New England Medical Center, and Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston.
Of the three cities, Boston has the fewest bicycles per hour at 55, Paris is next at 74, compared to at least 242 cyclists per hour in Amsterdam. Boston has a rate of 32%, Amsterdam, less than 1%

The Netherlands appears to have a dramatically lower death rate forpeople in passenger cars and for the combined group of cyclists and passenger car occupants.

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Old 05-09-07, 01:41 PM
  #1379  
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...meanwhile, as we argue, helmeted cyclists continue to die:

A helmet didn't save this cyclist so near to Thompson & Rivara's
Harborview Injury Prevention & Research Center, King County, Seattle:
https://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...icycle04m.html

SUV fatally injures Mormon missionary on bicycle in Kent
By Seattle Times staff

A bicyclist died today from injuries he suffered after he was struck by a
car in Kent on Thursday.

The 21-year-old Salt Lake City man was crossing Southeast 208th Street near
120th Place Southeast at 1:45 p.m. when he was struck by a Ford Explorer,
said King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart. No arrests have been made and
deputies are still investigating.

A second bicyclist who was crossing behind the Salt Lake City man wasn't
hit, Urquhart said.

Both men, who were wearing helmets, are missionaries with the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

or maybe this one, who died from a simple fall of the bike on a decent

Brasstown Bald injured passes away

The 53 year-old spectator who was injured while attempting to descend the notorious Brasstown Bald climb, after watching the finish of the Tour de Georgia's fifth stage, has passed away, according to a police report filed in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Thomas Kinnebrew never regained consciousness after the accident and past away in late April.

According to Atlanta Authorities, the Helena, Arkansas resident, was wearing a helmet but suffered severe head and spinal injuries after hitting a rock embankment.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ay07/may09news

and if that wasn't enough, even in stories where cyclists survive crashes without a helmet, helmet promoters still claim a helmets are necessary.


Bike Crash Kid Shares Story
from https://www.wrcbtv.com/news/index.cfm?sid=8168

Reported by, Matt Johnson

A Tennessee Valley boy is recovering from a bicycle accident that could have
been deadly. The eight-year old hit a car windshield and flew twelve feet in
the air before falling flat on his face.

Channel Three spoke with the boy who is making a remarkable recovery. The
boy was back in school Monday for the first time since Friday's accident.

Considering the circumstances, the injuries could have been much worse.
Nathan's story is a valuable lesson for kids and parents alike.

Beneath his bandage is a lesson learned. "Wear a helmet or you're going to
get hurt somehow," said eight year old Nathan Bostic. Bostic found out the
hard way. "I hit the car, my head busted the window open, I went twelve feet
in the air," he recalls.

The Athens second grader was racing down a busy side-street when he hit a
car head on. "When I went up in the air, I didn't feel nothing," he said.

Even worse, he wasn't wearing a helmet. "When I went down, my face, my
forehead hit the ground, my head started bleeding," Nathan said.

As he heals, Nathan's mother counts her blessings. "When I went down there
and seen the blood, yeah, it crossed my mind that he couldn't come back or
something, or he might have been paralyzed," said Amanda Bostic.

Mom knows it could have easily been worse. "I freaked, it was scary, I
didn't know, you know, you hear about it, but never think it can happen to
your kids, but it does," Bostic said.

Nearly 500 riders just like Nathan have accidents every year in Tennessee
alone. "We hate to see it, we certainly hate it for our customers and any
other fellow cyclists, but having the right safety precautions and having
the right safety equipment is crucial," said cycle safety expert, Garth
Mansfield.

He said equipment like helmets, reflectors, and flashing lights can reduce
the risk of wrecks. "These things definitely make a huge difference, so this
is preventable, the helmet hopefully worst case scenario, if you do get
involved in an accident, it will save your life."

Nathan's scars are painful proof that a little piece of plastic could mean
the difference between life and death. "I think I should have been more
careful," Nathan concluded.

Nathan's mother says she's learned a lesson, too. She was not with her son
when the accident happened. She advises parents to keep children in their
sights at all times.

It is a requirement under Tennessee state law to wear a helmet while riding
a bike for anyone under the age of sixteen. The driver did offer Nathan help
and neither the driver, nor the mother will face criminal charges.

It has to work both ways. If people survive without helmets and die with them on, there has to be investigation as to why this is so. It's just not responsible to turn a blind eye.
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Old 05-09-07, 01:45 PM
  #1380  
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at least in that link I gave that studied cyclists deaths in BC, they wrote:

Nathan's case illustrates the importance of "sharing the road" education and the unfortunate results when both cyclists and drivers fail to recognize clearly dangerous scenarios, where even a helmet will not provide enough protection to prevent death.
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Old 05-09-07, 01:57 PM
  #1381  
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...and, don't you just love the internet?

I did a quick Google again, and look what I found

(you should really click on the link if you want to read the events about each death)

from: https://members.shaw.ca/jtubman/deadhelmet.html

Cyclists Killed While Wearing Helmets

On Internet forums, I have seen plenty of postings that said, "A bike helmet saved my life!"

That is just anecdotal evidence, of course. The poster doesn't really know that, but he had a big scare, and his helmet broke, so he figured that it saved his noggin.

But anecdotal evidence, of course, can only show that something is not impossible. It does not mean that it is probable, or even that the conclusion drawn from the incident is correct. A polystyrene cycle helmet without a hard shell is designed to take a single direct impact at no more than 20 km/h. It is not magic.

Since many people find anecdotes more convincing than math and statistics (even those this is the only really sound way to make decisions on such a matter), I have searched the Web to provide a collection of links to pages about cyclists who died with their helmets on.

The starting point was a Google search. I searched for the words "cyclist" and "killed", and the phrase "was wearing a helmet." I got over 11,000 hits. This does not mean that there were 11,000 deaths of cyclists with helmets. Cycling is very safe, and it would take several years for this many deaths to occur in the English-speaking countries where the web pages were found. Stories about the same person were found in several places. Many stories were about motorcyclists. Sometimes there would be the phrase, "neither was wearing a helmet." But by perusing the first 300 hits, I produced this list.

Note that not all of these people are blameless. Some were riding unsafely and/or illegally. But in all cases, bicycle helmets did not save their lives.

You may have to scroll down a lot on some of these pages to find the relevant item.

1. Arjun Khanna
2. Dino J. Tortu
3. Garrett Paul Lemire, Haruko Fujinawa, Joe Hailey, Nicole Reinhart
4. James F. Payne
5. Garret Patrick Wonders
6. John Carney, Kevin O'Brien
7. A young cyclist in the Ottawa region
8. Liz Padilla
9. Samuel Adams Love, Darrel McDaniel, Sheryl McDaniel
10. Aaron Bieberitz
11. Malcolm Roberts
12. Robert Edward Hebeler
13. James Holcomb
14. Joseph E. Brown
15. Michael Brady
16. Robert Beebe
17. Nathan Geminiano
18. Khake Toure
19. Jessica Bullen
20. Gay Ann Simmons-Posey
21. Bohdan Kulakowski
22. Jason Kramer
23. Robert Edward Hebeler
24. Robert Irving Burton Jr.
25. Douglas Edward Lowe
26. Matt Wittig
27. Jacek Wierzbicki
28. Debra Goldsmith
29. Michael R. Rabe
30. David Pumphrey
31. Jerome Segal
32. Rachel Speight
33. Dave Holmes
34. Unnamed cyclist in Bourbon County, Kentucky
35. Eugenio Lucini
36. Stephen Kennedy
37. Robert Edward Hebeler
38. An unnamed 29-year-old Marine captain
39. Jason Caleb Wiley
40. Margaret Alene Sanders
41. Allan Moir
42. Armen Fallian
43. Larry Schwartz
44. Robert Hebeler
45. Michelle Mazzei
46. An unnamed tourist from Victoria, Australia
47. Jake Boysel
48. Eric Kautzky
49. Orlando Suarez
50. Hubert van Tol
51. Nate
52. An unnamed cyclist.
53. An unnamed cyclist known to orthopedic doctor
(Not the person pictured.)
54. Walter Anderson
55. James Holcomb
56. Kirk Ullrich
57. Joe Jabaily
58. Thomas Harland, Maurice Broadbent, Dave Horrocks, and Wayne Wilkes.
(Thanks to Roger Geffen of the UK Cyclists Touring Club for this link.)

Like I said, I quit looking after the first 300 hits. I could have gone on and on.

Ride safely. And remember that severe bike accidents are pretty rare, and bike deaths are even rarer.

Corrections, new examples, and thoughtful comments from any point of view are welcome.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-09-07 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-09-07, 02:19 PM
  #1382  
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...and really John, you've already given that by riding a bicycle, people stay out of hospitals more than they go in and that proper riding habits are more effective in preventing injury than helmets can.

You're a little sketchy on the risk in perspective thing, but with the above graphs and reports, it's easy to see it's not cyclists filling hospitals with head injury victims, it's falls, MVCs' and assaults that are.

Where the great divide happens is when we post of limitations of helmets. Que sera sera. Place your faith where you will. I'll place mine on more solid footing (at least in the way I see things - I'm entitled to that, am I not?)

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Old 05-09-07, 03:18 PM
  #1383  
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Closetbiker,

I'm a bit confused by the study you cited. I have a print-out of Bicycle Use and Safety in Paris, Boston, and Amsterdam, 1998. In it they show two graphs. Could you tell me what that first one actually says. It appears to me that the actual rate from the UN data is 17.7 bicycle deaths per million in the Netherlands, 5.6 in the France, and 3.1 in the United States. Then they go on and say that the Netherlands are safer than the USA or France, but they compare passenger/bicycle rates combined. Here's the graphs from the study.

By the way, to you who may be following this, Closetbiker is spamming the thread to get as far away from those studies I posted as possible, without answering concerning the difference between his statements and the Singapore study.

John
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Old 05-09-07, 05:16 PM
  #1384  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
By the way, to you who may be following this, Closetbiker is spamming the thread to get as far away from those studies I posted as possible, without answering concerning the difference between his statements and the Singapore study.

John
Nice John.

I'm spamming the thread. I think any reasonable person can see what's happening here and make judgments on their own.
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Old 05-09-07, 05:49 PM
  #1385  
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Well then, how do you explain the differences between your statements concerning the types of injuries that cyclists will receive that will be helped by helmets, and the Singapore study I cited now two pages back? You still have not answered that. Do I need to re-post that material?

And also, what is your answer to the question I have above (only one post away)?

By the way, I've discussed other measures to keep cyclists safe, both here and on other posts. But this is a helmet thread...

John
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Old 05-09-07, 05:55 PM
  #1386  
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I think any reasonable person can read what is here and understand how it is reports differ.

I think you have a hard time understanding some of it and you can shout all you want, it doesn't change any facts.

We can each have an opinion, but the facts don't change. I think you have a hard time discerning between the two.

I could explain many things to you (and have) but from judging from the previous postings you've made, it wouldn't make any difference. You'd flitter off to another point about how your opinion is right all the while ignoring the points made and distorting the posts that have been made (as if it isn't readily evident what was posted when).

As I said before, I have faith in individuals to come up with their own thoughts on the subject and information is power. All I'm doing is bringing up questions and providing information and letting other people make up their own minds.

See what ever it is you see, and think whatever it is you think. I think on balance, there is way too much emphasis placed on helmets. I know you feel different. I have yet to see you post anything that comes close to giving me a different impresion about helmets. In fact, I'd say most of what you've posted points me away from what you claim because of the way you've posted.

I've read sother postings on other groups about helmets and recently saw one that pretty much summed up how I came to ask questions to others about helmet use.

The poster described how he was convinced helmets were of importance and did much research to show others how important they are.

he posted,

*I went in search of the Holy Grail of the helmet argument that proves beyound doubt a massive benefit for wearing a helmet. Eleven years later and I am still looking. In fact I very much doubt whether I will ever find it.

My inability to find anything of weight surprised me. With all the hype surrounding helemets I thought that the reports and research would be proffessional. As it happens it is the people arguing against helmet laws have thus far presented the most proffessional research. *

This is kind of where I am at now. I'm looking for decent research on the efficacy**of helmets, but have yet to find any. It's an off chance that I'm going to find any here, but it's not the only place I'm looking.

Most of what I've found here are poor arguments argued by ridiculous posters. There has been some good stuff, but it's suprising what dreck this debate brings out.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-09-07 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 05-09-07, 08:23 PM
  #1387  
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for me

Originally Posted by closetbiker
I think any reasonable person can read what is here and understand how it is reports differ.

I think you have a hard time understanding some of it and you can shout all you want, it doesn't change any facts.

We can each have an opinion, but the facts don't change. I think you have a hard time discerning between the two.

I could explain many things to you (and have) but from judging from the previous postings you've made, it wouldn't make any difference. You'd flitter off to another point about how your opinion is right all the while ignoring the points made and distorting the posts that have been made (as if it isn't readily evident what was posted when).

As I said before, I have faith in individuals to come up with their own thoughts on the subject and information is power. All I'm doing is bringing up questions and providing information and letting other people make up their own minds.

See what ever it is you see, and think whatever it is you think. I think on balance, there is way too much emphasis placed on helmets. I know you feel different. I have yet to see you post anything that comes close to giving me a different impresion about helmets. In fact, I'd say most of what you've posted points me away from what you claim because of the way you've posted.

I've read sother postings on other groups about helmets and recently saw one that pretty much summed up how I came to ask questions to others about helmet use.

The poster described how he was convinced helmets were of importance and did much research to show others how important they are.

he posted,

*I went in search of the Holy Grail of the helmet argument that proves beyound doubt a massive benefit for wearing a helmet. Eleven years later and I am still looking. In fact I very much doubt whether I will ever find it.

My inability to find anything of weight surprised me. With all the hype surrounding helemets I thought that the reports and research would be proffessional. As it happens it is the people arguing against helmet laws have thus far presented the most proffessional research. *

This is kind of where I am at now. I'm looking for decent research on the efficacy**of helmets, but have yet to find any. It's an off chance that I'm going to find any here, but it's not the only place I'm looking.

Most of what I've found here are poor arguments argued by ridiculous posters. There has been some good stuff, but it's suprising what dreck this debate brings out.
Good postings....for me, I wear a helmet most of the time and pretend that I am not. I don't have much faith in the common bicycle helmet and rode for years when no helmets were available. What I discovered in my early days was how to avoid getting hit by auto drivers and ways to become more visible to them. Riding in a predictable manner, watching for dangerous situtations, maintaining my bike and generally being aware. These are the things that help keep you alive and uninjured.

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Old 05-10-07, 12:15 AM
  #1388  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
...and really John, you've already given that by riding a bicycle, people stay out of hospitals more than they go in and that proper riding habits are more effective in preventing injury than helmets can.

You're a little sketchy on the risk in perspective thing, but with the above graphs and reports, it's easy to see it's not cyclists filling hospitals with head injury victims, it's falls, MVCs' and assaults that are.

Where the great divide happens is when we post of limitations of helmets. Que sera sera. Place your faith where you will. I'll place mine on more solid footing (at least in the way I see things - I'm entitled to that, am I not?)
Well, let's see. You won't answer my questions, but we have to answer yours. Yes, I say that riding habits are the best preventative measure. Unfortunately, we also intermix with motorists, some of whom are distracted, inebriated, or just plain incompetant. And that gets us into crashes (many cyclists, but of course, not you, Closetbiker--you're above getting into a crash with a motorist).

Now, for the "perspective thing." I have participated in some of the most hazardous types of activities over the last 50 or so years. I scuba dive, have mountain climbed on both snow & ice, and rock faces, have crewed helicopters in combat conditions, have gone down helicopter hoists, parachute jumped into all kinds of environments (tree jumping, land, mountain snow/ice, and parascuba), played football, participated in competitive judo, and, of course, bicycled. Guess which two have landed me in the hospital? Would you believe judo and bicycling? That's my, very personal, perspective. Bicycling is by far the most hazardous activity I have participated in during my life, which I believe is a bit longer than yours. On one Apollo simulated exercise with NASA, we jumped off Florida's east coast into shark waters (a shark was cruising around the Apollo capsule, and I counted 12 or so on our downwind leg that I jumpmastered). Everyone thinks that sharks are hazardous, and while I've seen them underwater, and landed on one in this parascuba jump exercise, I have not been bitten, nor even come close, and I've been scuba diving for 48 years. While doing some work on another thread, I found this entry comparing shark attacks and bicycle-related fatalities:

https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/sharks...lariskbike.htm

As you can see, bicycles are much more hazardous than sharks overall. Between 1990 and 2005, there were 10,147 bicycling fatalities in the United States, whereas sharks took 12 people's lives. You might say that there simply are not so many people swimming with sharks as there are bicyclists in the USA, and you'd be right. But if you look at Florida statistics, there were 1,520 bicycle fatalities during that period, whereas the sharks only took 4 people in Florida in the same period (shark attack files). I think the sharks have gotten a bad rap.

Now, on all those activities, I have worn helmets when appropriate. I wore them on rock cliffs, when climbing or rappelling, as rocks can come down and hit our heads. I wore them while crewing helicopters, as who knows where a combat helicopter might land (or not). I wore them descending a helicopter hoist, as we could swing into trees, or worse in combat, be pulled through the trees as the helicopter decided to get out of there. I wore them on some parachute jumps (tree and land jumps), but not on the parascuba jumps into water (different hazard). I now wear my first bicycle helmet, a Skid-Lite helmet, diving, as I do some climbing on rocks while in full scuba gear, and want some protection. I also want the visibility the yellow helmet gives for boaters who may also be using the Clackamas River while I'm diving. And, of course, I wear it while I'm riding my bicycle.

From my perspective, 10,147 fatalities is not a trivial matter over that time period noted above. It is not the greatest killer in the United States (heart disease and cars rate there), but it's not trivial either.

Recently, I decided upon Closetbiker's advise to try riding my recumbant without a helmet. I did this on the bike path on my commute route, and came away with some interesting observations. I did like the greater cooling that I got without the helmet (that was our first 80 degree day this Spring). But I did not like the sun's effect of partially blinding me on my commute home, when it was lower in the sky. I like using the helmet with a sun visor. Actually, I've gone to wearing a hat under the helmet for this reason, and to protect the top of my head from sunburn. I don't think Closetbiker is old enough to have this problem, from what he's been saying at least. What I found is that wearing the helmet is not uncomfortable, and if keeping your hair nice-looking is your hang-up, then wear a hat under the helmet and don't take it off. No big deal.

You, Closetbiker, are hung up on the limitations of the helmet, and have said that they are virtually worthless except for those, what you call "superficial," injuries. But the Singapore study I keep asking you about talks about these kinds of injuries:
The injuries with the strongest negative effect on outcome were: subarachnoid haemorrhage (P = 0.000001), multiple (P = 0.000005) or large ( P 0.0007) contusions, subdural haematoma (P = 0.001) and brain swelling (P = 0.002). A significant coexistence of these four injuries was found. We hypothesise that in many patients the contusions may have been the primary injuries of this complex and should therefore be considered as a main injury determining outcome in this study.
From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed
While it is true that a bicyclist with a helmet will die if involved in a head-long collision with an SUV, or a train (you used that example once too), it is also true that a fall at speed from a bicycle is not necessarily over the helmet's capacity to help (see post #1292 for a more complete explanation). When I posted those, your rely, from post #1293 was:
Tha's nice John, but you're no pathologist or neurologist, and your qualifications do not exceed those of Dr. George Shively, (The Snell Memorial Foundation founder) or of Brian Walker, (one of the leading experts on the mechanics of helmets) or W.J. Curnow. All of these people publicly pronounce findings directly in opposition to your postings.

Speculate all you wish, but when cyclists with helmets receive brain injuries at an equal rate as cyclists without helmets, a reasonable person has to consider the limitations of helmets.
I have shown above that these rates are not equal, and you ignore them (see post #1373). Not only that, but rather than address them, you are patronizing (as in "...to behave in an offensively condescending manner toward..." The Random House Dictionary, 1978)

When I show you studies which state differently from your views, you ignore them, or post a bunch of newspaper articles to distance people from the posts, such as when I discussed the information above from the Singapore study. By the way, do you know what a p-value is, and why they decided in these studies to state the p-values?

I use a helmet not because I simply have faith in it as the sole means of protection, but because it is a (as in one) tool in the injury-prevention tool box that we can easily use. Our auto-centric culture today has made bicycling much more hazardous than it should be, simply by the behavior of the drivers around bicyclists. There are many things we can do to help, and you have pointed out several of these, and I others. But once the contact is made, all bets are off. You are better off with a helmet than without, just like we were better off with helmets in Vietnam than without, with helmets on a cliff than without, with helmets as a smokejumper going down into wilderness areas than without, and with a helmet in my diving gear exiting on a rocky river bank where I must climb 10 feet than without a helmet.

John

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Old 05-10-07, 08:38 AM
  #1389  
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A good response and one that is a typical one for you John. It's not all bad, but far enough out in left field to be easy to miss some relevant points.

You don't have to answer my points and I've never posted that you do have to, and you know I have had several crashes with cars amongst other crashes with cyclists as well. I've never said not to wear a helmet or given you advice to do so. I've never said helmets aren't good and weren't worth wearing. You can believe cycling is the most hazardous activity one can do, but your experience isn't going to be the same as it is for others. You also have to understand there are others far more qualified with a far greater understanding on the subject than you and when you post opinions completely opposed to those others, it's not all that unreasonable that some are going to look to their different point of view as being a better bet to be right. I have read the studies you've linked and find problems with them. If you've said I've posted things when I haven't, or missed completely a simple explanation of a point, I have to wonder at what your understanding is after you've read those studies. If I'm being patronizing, it's because it's like I'm trying to deal with a petulant child. You have poor interaction skills John, but that doesn't mean you don't have some good points. It's just such hard work to get to them.

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Old 05-11-07, 01:30 PM
  #1390  
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Originally Posted by Raiyn
Next you'll tell me that feeding tubes are out.......
only in FL
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Old 05-11-07, 01:37 PM
  #1391  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
I'm looking for decent research on the efficacy**of helmets, but have yet to find any.
You might look to the ski industry. Contrary to what the industry and popular opinion would like ppl to believe there's some interesting and scientific data showing the inefficacy of ski helmets. White papers came out in the last 48 months that showed two things. First, helmets do nothing in the bad wrecks to reduce fatalities. Second, skiers with helmets are more likely to suffer severe head trauma and or death. The later presumably due to several factors or combinations thereof: invincibility, better skiers tend to wear them and they are more likely to be going fast enough to get killed, etc. Ski helmets, and I suspect bike helmets do however reduce the number of minor injuries. Wrecks which would formerly resulted in concussions don't happen, so they never get reported and factored in as being in the + collumn for efficacy.

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Old 05-12-07, 09:22 AM
  #1392  
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Dr. King at Wayne State U. has been doing impacts with xray targets implanted in cadaver brains. Aside from Dr. King, one of the most active rotational injury investigators has been Biokinetics in Ottawa. They have been among the researchers working for the NFL Players Association in a well-funded study of concussion. There have been designs proposed for helmets with an internal or external "slip plane" designed to make them move easily to the side in an impact. But mostly, there has been frustration by the lack of progress and the need for more research on rotational injury mechanisms.

There has been and will continue to be much work done on helmets and brain injury, but for now (and for quite some time) there are limitations to what a helmet can do.
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Old 05-12-07, 09:54 AM
  #1393  
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Helmets Cramp My Style.

I Agree That There Maybe A Slight Increase In The Need For Cycle Helmet Use In City Traffic,if Only To Make Motorists Feel Easier About The Injuries They Will Do To A Cyclist When They Cut You Up,but Most Of Us Feel A Sense Of Freedom In Our Cycling And Do Not Want Legislation To Force Us To Wear A Helmet Or Next It Will Be Saftey Vests And Boots,afterall The Only People Who Would Force The Issue Are Insurers. .
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Old 05-12-07, 10:17 AM
  #1394  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
and we both know Dr. Shively is on record with the statement,
it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection.
Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Actually, I don't know that. I would like to see the full quote, not just half a sentence. Knowing how you butchered my post in a quote above, I suspect that the same has happened here. So show us the full paragraph, and hopefully a link, or a source, and I'll be more convinced.
Originally Posted by closetbiker
just doing a bit of search here on these forums and it's pretty cool that there are so many people here who have a good bit of knowledge in certian areas.

One of these people is cyclintom who (I get from his postings here) was the Safety Director of the American Federation of Motorcyclists and is an engineer who has studied helmets for 30 years.

He has posted, *... I started riding bicycles again I ASSUMED that helmets would be effective in bicycling despite their ineffectiveness in motorcycling... I studied the facts, the standards and the physics of the problem and then saw people passing mandatory helmet laws that essentially stopped children from riding bicycles at least in my area.

I've bothered to read most of the helmet studies until the last 4 or 5 years. I talked to materials engineers. I talked to Dr. Shively, who was the Director of the Snell Memorial Foundation...
Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
... Have you gotten the whole Dr. Shively quote yet? I honestly do not know who this cyclintom is, nor do I care..
looked again, and found on the Food for Thought thread (50+) section

Originally Posted by cyclintom
...I actually went out and studied the subject of safety helmets. What I discovered shocked and dismayed me. (Let's remember the words of Dr. Shively, the director of the Snell Memorial Foundation and one of the world's foremost experts on safety helmets, "... it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection")

I spoke to Dr. Shively himself on a couple of occasions and he was an honorable man and one who had no ego tied up in someone else's commercial business ventures. He was interested in safety first and foremost and he would let the chips fly where they would in the interests of safety.
just thought the group would like to know of that direct link
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Old 05-12-07, 03:51 PM
  #1395  
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I'm still looking for the entire quote from Dr. Shively on this. Or, perhaps you could get Dr. Shively to post here what he thinks in an entire thought.

Can helmets be improved? Definitely. But event today's helmets will give more protection that the head itself hitting pavement, or the side of a car.

John
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Old 05-12-07, 03:55 PM
  #1396  
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C'mon John, what do you want? Talk to Tom and get the entire conversation.

I guess when Clinton said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", you needed more information too? That wasn't enough information needed to form an opinion on the situation?

By refusing to follow this up, aren't you being a little overzealous here?

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Old 05-13-07, 12:24 AM
  #1397  
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Well, Closetbiker, the problem is that you have turned some of my words into something they were not, and so I do not feel comfortable believing what you quoted from Dr. Shively until I get at least the entire sentence, if not the entire paragraph to see what the context of that quote was. You say the quote is:

Originally Posted by Closetbiker, attributed to Dr. Shively
...it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection"
Now, I can make that out a number of ways. For instance,

"Without adequate foam...it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection"

"For a head-on collision with an SUV...it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection"

"For the condition where a cyclist crosses active railroad tracks, and is hit by a train...it is impossible to build a helmet that will offer significant impact protection"

I think you get my drift here. Without at least the entire sentence, "...it is impossible to..." know what Dr. Shively was actually saying. Actually, without the context of the paragraph, it is rather difficult to know what he was trying to get across.

John
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Old 05-13-07, 12:41 AM
  #1398  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Well, Closetbiker, the problem is that you have turned some of my words into something they were not, and so I do not feel comfortable believing what you quoted
...sort of like when you quote me when I haven't even made the quote? Pot calling the kettle black?

So, get the entire content, context and background of the quote from the horses mouth. Or, don't you really want it?

I think the real reason you don't want to go to the source is because the real issue is about being right, not about how effective a helmet is. That's fine, but it undermines your arguments.

The fact that the quote has been used by another (and one that is far more proficient in understanding the issue and has had direct dealings with the quoted) legitimizes it.

Maybe you don't think so but coupled with other quotes I've posted like,

. . . helmets will mitigate the effects of falling off your bicycle and striking your head . . . If a cyclist is accelerated by a car, then the helmet will not work and will not prevent a severe or even fatal injury.

-- Dr. Michael Schwartz, neurosurgeon and member of Canadian Standards Association Committee establishing helmet standards

One has to agree that in high speed impacts [a helmet] won't prevent death.

-- Dr. William Lucas, Toronto Coroner, September 1998

and,

In situations of a fall they [helmets] are next to useless because they do not protect against diffused brain damage. The damage to the brain would still have occurred because it is the rattling inside the skull that caused the damage.

-- Chief Pathologist Clive Cooke,
Coroner's Court Testimony, Perth, Australia

the quote is not out of line. You're just personalizing the issue.

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Old 05-13-07, 08:17 AM
  #1399  
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No, I'm not personalizing the issue. The issue is to find out exactly what Dr. Shively was saying. It was your quote, and you've quoted me out of context in the past. So it is up to you to provide the context of the quote. I don't have the source, and cannot find it. If you cannot find it, I have to believe that you have also quoted Dr. Shively out of context, and do not wish to provide that context. So, where's the rest of the quote?

John
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Old 05-13-07, 08:50 AM
  #1400  
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if this is what represents the opposition to helmet skeptics, there's no wonder there are skeptics

work it out John, it's really not that hard to do (but then again, maybe for some people, it is)
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