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Helmets cramp my style

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Helmets cramp my style

Old 05-19-07, 12:25 PM
  #1451  
jakub.ner
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Nope. It's not your choice since your head injuries is going to cost me.
Are you serious about that statement? What about the health care costs reductions due to increased bike use and better life style?

In order for my taxes to go to more productive use...

I hope you never get on a ladder and always get a qualified/certified contractor to change your lightbulbs!

I hope you always get a qualified/certified handler of toxic/dangerous goods to fill up your car with gasoline! For that matter when you grease your chain I hope you wear a gas mask and gloves.

I hope you don't have carpeting in your house!

I hope you don't have gas heating!

I hope you never ride your bike behind a bus.

I hope your helmet costs you the right amount of money: adjusted for the cost to society for the non-biodegradable plastic and styrofoam.

Last edited by jakub.ner; 05-19-07 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 05-19-07, 12:43 PM
  #1452  
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You don't get it. The same reason bike helmets are a good idea is the same reasons the we have mandatory seatbelts in cars, airbags in cars (since 1992), helmet laws on motorcycles and so on.

They not only save your life but reduce the health care costs while still giving people the freedom to use bikes, cars and motorcycles.

Or look at it this way: Mandatory Motorcycle helmets are far better than an outright ban of motorcycles. Same goes for bike helmets. In some areas they are mandatory for certain ages.

You have the freedom of choice to use a bike, motorcycle or car. But you don't have a choice to use your seatbelt, motorcycle helmet... and hopefully one of these days... a bike helmet.

Personally, I like a bike helmet. it holds my rear-view mirror and my LED light (great for biking in the woods late at night).
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Old 05-19-07, 01:14 PM
  #1453  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
You don't get it. The same reason bike helmets are a good idea is the same reasons...
well then how would you take the information given earlier in the Western Standard,

Although helmet use has increased in the U.S., there is no reliable evidence that this has reduced head injuries or fatalities. G.B. Rodgers looked at 8 million cases over 15 years (Journal of Products Liability) and found "no evidence that hard shell helmets have reduced the head injury and fatality rates." Indeed, "the bicycle-related fatality rate is positively and significantly correlated with increased helmet use." The New York Times reported 73,750 head injuries from cycling in 2000, compared with 66,820 in 1991. And children's head injuries have returned to 1991 levels, though fewer kids now ride bikes.
or in the Star-Pheniox

For instance, points out senior statistician D. L. Robinson, in an analysis entitled No clear evidence from countries that have enforced the wearing of helmets, after Halifax, N.S., introduced a helmet bylaw, their use among riders rose to 80 per cent by 1998-99 from below 40 per cent five years earlier. However, there was no significant reduction in the percentage of head injuries. Similar findings have been reported in other jurisdictions such as Australia and New Zealand.
or the graph given on causes of death



aren't some just making too big a fuss over something of little consequence?
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Old 05-19-07, 02:47 PM
  #1454  
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Why would you even want to take a chance? So what if there's no PROOF it reduces injury. You going to put YOUR life on the line to prove otherwise?

I didn't play football without my helmet, and I'm sure not going to be biking without my helmet either. If I get into a serious crash and my bike helmet is one of those 1 out of a million instances where it did save me... then I'll be glad I did.

Everyone knows the benefits of wearing a helmet. If you don't, go play some full contact sport like Football or Hockey; you'll quickly change your mind. So if it works for those sports, it probably also works for biking.

If the current helmets don't help, maybe it's the helmet design, not the idea of wearing a helmet. To be honest, when I compare my bike helmet to my football helmet, I do have doubts about the real protection a bike helmet gives. Still, I'd rather wear one than none at all.
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Old 05-19-07, 02:49 PM
  #1455  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Nope. It's not your choice since your head injuries is going to cost me.
and considering the above graphic, shouldn't cyclists demand those who don't get the required exercise that each of us need to maintain our bodies, and cycling provodes us, payment for what they are doing t their bodies by not cycling?

Isn't heart disease a far larger drain on health care than the (very) few TBI on bicycles? (and what about the very many more TBI suffered by those not on bicycles?)
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Old 05-19-07, 02:59 PM
  #1456  
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You can't force people onto bikes. Same as cars, you can't force people to use cars, but when they do, you can force them to use seatbelts.

Heart disease is a problem but you can't force people to go biking or walking. But there are things that can be done to reduce the heart disease problems, like banning certain foods.
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Old 05-19-07, 02:59 PM
  #1457  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Why would you even want to take a chance? ...
life is about chance. each of us need to find out what chances we are comfortable with. No one is saying not to wear a helmet, just people should be left alone to make up their own minds on what to do.

you're just as likely to receive an injury walking driving or riding a bike. figure out the best way to reduce your chances and go with it.

some people with cigarettes hanging out of their mouths and 40 pounds hanging over their belts have told me I'm crazy for riding my bike and then go out and talk on the phone while changing a cd in their SUV with a gun in the glove box for personal protection. They had bacon and eggs for breakfast after a night in front of the tube downing a six-pack and tripped going down the stairs to get some more ice cream out of the freezer.

That's life man.
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Old 05-19-07, 03:01 PM
  #1458  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
... figure out the best way to reduce your chances and go with it...
Couldn't have said it better myself. And that best way to reduce my chance is... a helmet.
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Old 05-19-07, 03:02 PM
  #1459  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
You can't force people onto bikes. Same as cars, you can't force people to use cars, but when they do, you can force them to use seatbelts.

Heart disease is a problem but you can't force people to go biking or walking. But there are things that can be done to reduce the heart disease problems, like banning certain foods.
and the best way to reduce brain injury is to get people cycling

- from a link that shows riding a bike even without a helmet can reduce brain injuries (just as it can reduce many other ailments) https://www.elbowvalleycc.org/evccbhl.html

In a 1998 radio phone-in program an Alberta doctor reported that there are on the order of 10.000 brain injuries suffered annually in this province. Some 80% of these are due to strokes and heart attacks, with the remaining 20% being traumatic brain injuries. Of these remaining 2,000 about one half were as a result of motor vehicle collisions, and following the reasoning presented above, only about 50 or so will be a result of bicycle falls or collisions. As cycling can result in many physiological changes that lead to a reduction in the risk of suffering a stroke or heart attack, it may be counterproductive to emphasise the numbers of cycling related brain injuries, and the health risks associated with cycling.
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Old 05-19-07, 03:04 PM
  #1460  
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Zeuser, if your wallet gives you the right to force me to put a helmet on, my wallet gives me the right to go through your refrigerator to remove fatty foods, sugary snacks, and alcohol. Let me know what time I should drop by.

More to the point, two little words that make the economic cost even more irrelevant: I'm insured.

And a parting shot: me falling off my bike in Southern California can't possibly cost you anything up there in Canada. Anyway you look at it, your argument lacks merit.
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Old 05-19-07, 03:05 PM
  #1461  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Couldn't have said it better myself. And that best way to reduce my chance is... a helmet.
and everyone is in favor of you making your choice. it might also be good to understand it's limitations as well as using prevention as a primary tool to reduce injuries

I'd take issue with your position because no helmet has ever prevented a fall (that would be my stance, preventing a fall from happening is better to prevent an injury than an attempt to reduce a falls impact to prevent an injury), but you're entitled to it.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-21-07 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:04 PM
  #1462  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
... So what if there's no PROOF it reduces injury ...
sorry, just looked at the comment again. It's telling in the logic used to formulate an opinion.

There's no proof it reduces injury, but they save your life and reduce the health care costs.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-19-07 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:23 PM
  #1463  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
sorry, just looked at the comment again. It's telling in the logic used to formulate an opinion.

There's no proof it reduces injury, but they save your life and reduce the health care costs.

That's is a very twisted logic....he must be some kind of government worker.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:31 PM
  #1464  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
Zeuser, if your wallet gives you the right to force me to put a helmet on, my wallet gives me the right to go through your refrigerator to remove fatty foods, sugary snacks, and alcohol. Let me know what time I should drop by.

More to the point, two little words that make the economic cost even more irrelevant: I'm insured.

And a parting shot: me falling off my bike in Southern California can't possibly cost you anything up there in Canada. Anyway you look at it, your argument lacks merit.
Unless your insurance company happens to be the same as mine, then yes... you crashing in CA will be coming from my pocket. But, forget about my wallet and look at the people around you in CA, it's their wallet instead. And what about your own wallet? Next time you see some other biker crashing sustaining head injuries and then look at your taxes and insurance contributions. Then you might figure out that it hits you in your wallet in a way.

Point is: one person having an accident will cost a lot of people around him/her. That's a good thing in a way. Without that, many people would die. And insurance works the same way as well. But if we can minimize the injuries sustained, and the related costs, we all come out as winners.

That's where those airbag and seatbelt laws come from.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:36 PM
  #1465  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
sorry, just looked at the comment again. It's telling in the logic used to formulate an opinion.

There's no proof it reduces injury, but they save your life and reduce the health care costs.
That's not what I said, you're taking it out of context. Read a bit further about the part where I say : "even if there's a 1 in 1 million chance".

And in which case i will have saved my life and health costs.

As a person who's been in a bad motorcycle crash, I can say that I'm very glad I was wearing a helmet.

And as I said before: if the stats show there's no difference, then it's perhaps because of the design of helmets and not the fact that people wear helmets.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:40 PM
  #1466  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
I'd take issue with your position because no helmet has ever prevented a fall (that would be my stance, preventing a fall from happening is better to prevent an injury than an attempt to reduce a falls impact to prevent an injury), but you're entitled to it.
As a guy who has taken a really nasty fall with several bones broken on my motorcycle, I can tell you that helmets really do work!

The right side of my helmet was all messed up with cracks and scrapes. With no helmet, half my face would've been ripped of.

Now, if it's the effectiveness of the design of bike helmets, then that's another matter and I do concede that they seem pretty weak. But with a properly designed helmet... they do work!

And I'm glad they're mandatory on motorcycles!
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Old 05-19-07, 04:42 PM
  #1467  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Unless your insurance company happens to be the same as mine, then yes... you crashing in CA will be coming from my pocket. But, forget about my wallet and look at the people around you in CA, it's their wallet instead. And what about your own wallet? Next time you see some other biker crashing sustaining head injuries and then look at your taxes and insurance contributions. Then you might figure out that it hits you in your wallet in a way.

Point is: one person having an accident will cost a lot of people around him/her. That's a good thing in a way. Without that, many people would die. And insurance works the same way as well. But if we can minimize the injuries sustained, and the related costs, we all come out as winners.

That's where those airbag and seatbelt laws come from.

Maybe you haven't read some of my posts on this forum.

I had a car wreck in 1998. As a result, I sustained a brain injury. At the accident scene, I declined a trip to the emergency room, since I was thought to be uninjured and the police thought so too. You see, my head didn't impact anything, but a few days later, I would find that I did indeed sustain a serious injury...to my brain. It wasn't until it was explained to me by a specialists that I understood how the brain is injured. For a year, I was part of a brain injury study, they followed my recovery.

Don't assume that what you read about helmets and brain injuries is true. A helmet may protect you from some lacerations, but it is not going to help sustain you from a brain injury. There are helmets, were helmets, that proved to help. Unfortunately, those helmets tended to drag on pavement and crippled people....actually causing that which you fear...long term health care costs.


Helmets with visors and angled surfaces, the "cool" helmets everyone now wears, also tend to snag on road surfaces and cause severe neck/spinal injuries. If you wear a helmet, I hope you do not wear one such as those. It may snap your neck in a crash and cause me and others to have to foot your medical bills till your expiration date. I don't want to pay for your wheelchair and nurse just because you wanted to wear a helmet of the latest coolest design.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:47 PM
  #1468  
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So much for "stats":

Transport Canada statistics reveal that 60 cyclists were killed in 2001. Of these, 88 per cent were not wearing a helmet, including all of those under age 15.
According to the US Department of Transportation, 90% of cyclists killed in 2000 were not wearing a helmet. In the US, head injuries account for over 60% of cyclist deaths, two-thirds of bicycle-related hospital admissions and one-third of hospital emergency visits for bicycle injuries.
Quoted from the Canadian safety council. You know... people who spend all their time trying to make things safer for us.

I seriously doubt that things have changed much between now and then.

Oh and JWC... I said "head injuries"... not "brain injuries". There's a difference.
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Old 05-19-07, 04:50 PM
  #1469  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
So much for "stats":





Quoted from the Canadian safety council. You know... people who spend all their time trying to make things safer for us.

I seriously doubt that things have changed much between now and then.

Oh and JWC... I said "head injuries"... not "brain injuries". There's a difference.

Then, why make a helmet law? To prevent plastic surgery costs?
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Old 05-19-07, 04:51 PM
  #1470  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Oh and JWC... I said "head injuries"... not "brain injuries". There's a difference.
What "head injury" (not brain injury) is costing you so much money?
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Old 05-19-07, 05:55 PM
  #1471  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
They not only save your life but reduce the health care costs while still giving people the freedom to use bikes, cars and motorcycles.
I'd love nothing more than that out of bike helmets. Unfourtunatelly as far as I understand the debate, this is far from fact.

It provides protection from scalp road rash, small rocks, twigs, roots. I detest claims of reductions of brain injury and mitigation of concussions. My knowledge of the matter is limited to the Internet but I like to think I've done due diligence to myself. I believe what I've reiterated of helmet limitations is consistent with real science.

Insurance companies, governments, and other policy makers should base their decisions on real science in such matters.
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Old 05-19-07, 06:04 PM
  #1472  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
The right side of my helmet was all messed up with cracks and scrapes. With no helmet, half my face would've been ripped of.
Excellent, glad you were wearing it! That's what they're good for: separating your head from those damn pebbles in asphalt. Good against skull fractures and minimizing occurrence of head and scalp lacerations.

So it must have been a glancing blow to the head and it didn't result in a concussion?
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Old 05-19-07, 06:27 PM
  #1473  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
... That's where those airbag and seatbelt laws come from.
I am hoping there is real science and modelling proving effectiveness of those devices: and that this science came in before any thought of legistlation back in the day. Once we have a scientific base for helmet effectiveness against brain injuries, your argument will have merit and I will be a happier man adjusting those damn helmet straps when I want to put a toque on.
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Old 05-19-07, 06:31 PM
  #1474  
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Originally Posted by jwc
... Helmets with visors and angled surfaces, the "cool" helmets everyone now wears, also tend to snag on road surfaces and cause severe neck/spinal injuries. If you wear a helmet, I hope you do not wear one such as those ...
+1

Multi-purpose helmets such as those used for skate boarding have a hard plastic shell and are form fitting to your head. They also have very few vent holes. I wear a white one of these: the white keeps it cooler and me more visible. Last thing I want is my anti laceration device to snag with one of those holes and twist my neck, or torque it if I'm rolling just because it's aero.
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Old 05-19-07, 06:40 PM
  #1475  
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Originally Posted by jakub.ner
Once we have a scientific base for helmet effectiveness against brain injuries, your argument will have merit and I will be a happier man adjusting those damn helmet straps when I want to put a toque on.
Fine, page 36 of this Statistic Canada Report..
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