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Helmets cramp my style

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Helmets cramp my style

Old 05-20-07, 03:06 PM
  #1501  
Six jours
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As a guy who has taken a really nasty fall with several bones broken on my motorcycle, I can tell you that helmets really do work!
I would never ride my motorcycle without a full-face helmet. Motorcycle crashes tend to be much higher energy affairs than bicycle crashes, and motorcycle helmets are much more effective than bicycle helmets. I still support motorcycle helmets as a matter of personal choice, however.

As an interesting theoretical, I don't have any doubt whatsoever that many bicyclist lives could be saved by mandating motorcycling helmets for bicycling. That would save quite a bit of money, as well, making it very consistent with that argument. Of course, bicyclists would scream bloody murder about it, as motorcycling helmets are hot, restrictive, heavy, and uncomfortable. And there's that darned safety/risk/inconvenience continuum again.

BTW, do you have a dollar figure as to how much those broken bones cost me? I'd like a refund, as I don't think your freedom to ride a motorcycle without full body armor is worth the risk to my wallet.
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Old 05-20-07, 04:24 PM
  #1502  
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It's simply amazing how some people just don't get it. Arguments, stats, money... whatever! Just wear a damn helmet and be done with it.

If they work, then so much the better. If they don't, what do you have to lose except the cost of a helmet? Are your really that poor that you can't afford a helmet?

The old saying is true: IT'S BETTER TO ERR ON THE SAFE SIDE!

Don't be stupid!
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Old 05-20-07, 04:35 PM
  #1503  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
... By the time we get to bolded all-caps with lots of exclamation points, the average Joe has tuned out.


+1 on what you said in the rest of your post.
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Old 05-20-07, 05:13 PM
  #1504  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
One of the problems here is that the "science" is not terribly clear-cut...Bicycle helmets, as an issue, are not clear.
I'll agree and give an objective source in agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet

Research evidence

Evidence for the efficacy of helmets in preventing serious injury is contradictory and inconclusive...

The definition of injury is also open to debate, and injury figures are acknowledged to be inaccurate...Recent research on traumatic brain injury adds further confusion, suggesting that the major causes of permanent intellectual disablement and death may well be torsional forces leading to diffuse axonal injury (DAI), a form of injury which helmets cannot mitigate.[18] Helmets may increase the torsional forces by increasing the distance from the extremities of the helmet to the centre of the spine, compared to the distance without a helmet...

Much of the research is partisan in one way or another. Thompson, Rivara and Thompson were already committed advocates of helmet legislation before publishing their first study;

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-21-07 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 05-20-07, 05:43 PM
  #1505  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser

Don't be stupid!
I think we all agree on that one, but just how does one define stupid?
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Old 05-20-07, 06:17 PM
  #1506  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
It's simply amazing how some people just don't get it. Arguments, stats, money... whatever! Just wear a damn helmet and be done with it.

If they work, then so much the better. If they don't, what do you have to lose except the cost of a helmet? Are your really that poor that you can't afford a helmet?

The old saying is true: IT'S BETTER TO ERR ON THE SAFE SIDE!

Don't be stupid!
I am not convinced that the current styrofoam bicycle helmets are any help at all and in fact they may cause neck injuries upon hitting the road. A old school hard shell hockey helmet would probably be a better helmet for cyclists provided it had enough ventilation.
Its kind of interesting that elite runners run as fast as many cyclists average speed and nobody seems to be worried that they might trip and fall and crack their head.
Then of couse there is the cooling effect when hill climbing, of not wearing a helmet. Anybody ever wonder how many cyclists fall over due to heat exhaustion, while wearing their helmet?

Last edited by charles vail; 05-20-07 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 05-20-07, 08:58 PM
  #1507  
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It's simply amazing how some people just don't get it. Arguments, stats, money... whatever! Just wear a damn helmet and be done with it.
The exact same argument could be made against helmet use, and it would be just as vapid and obnoxious.

If they work, then so much the better. If they don't, what do you have to lose except the cost of a helmet? Are your really that poor that you can't afford a helmet?
Huh? Who mentioned expense? AFAIK, the only talk about money here has been from you, worried that me exercising liberty down in SoCal is somehow going to cost you money in Ontario. And yet you still won't bother responding to thought experiments about why I shouldn't be allowed to go through your fridge and clean out any "unsafe" foods. Why should I have to pay for your diabetes/heart disease/cancer?

The old saying is true: IT'S BETTER TO ERR ON THE SAFE SIDE!
The bolded all caps apparently isn't working. Maybe you should try some colors.

Don't be stupid!
You haven't actually read anything posted here, have you?

Last edited by Six jours; 05-20-07 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 05-20-07, 10:31 PM
  #1508  
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put off cycling

Originally Posted by IronMac
The visors snap off in a crash, trust me.

As for snagging on road surfaces, how many times has that happened? Virtually all helmets from the front and sides are smooth and rounded with only the back part being "angled". Sounds like more FUD put out by the anti-helmet zealots...much like that ballyhooed idea that helmets put people off of cycling.
On the contrary, I had a guy tell me, just four days ago, that he isn't riding his bike until he gets a helmet and all the other gear, he thinks he needs. His commute is only four miles, on flat ground, with a four foot smooth shoulder, no turns and clear visibiltiy. This same road has been ridden on by every kid within ten miles, to go the local store and buy candy since the 1940's, myself included and no helmets. Now......I'm not saying someone won't crash and hit their head while riding but apparently all those people for years havn't let it stop them from riding. My own cycling was completely helmetless for nearly 25 years as was my fathers and literally millions and millions of Americans not to mention billions around the world since the 1800's. Not until 1975 have we felt the need to don styrofoam packing material on our heads to simply ride a bicycle at 10-15 mph which is nearly as fast as I can run at top speed (still) at 48 years and 260 pounds. I suppose I should wear a helmet when running too!
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Old 05-20-07, 11:13 PM
  #1509  
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Originally Posted by charles vail
I am not convinced that the current styrofoam bicycle helmets are any help at all and in fact they may cause neck injuries upon hitting the road. A old school hard shell hockey helmet would probably be a better helmet for cyclists provided it had enough ventilation.
Its kind of interesting that elite runners run as fast as many cyclists average speed and nobody seems to be worried that they might trip and fall and crack their head.
Then of couse there is the cooling effect when hill climbing, of not wearing a helmet. Anybody ever wonder how many cyclists fall over due to heat exhaustion, while wearing their helmet?
If you were to see it anywhere, you'd see someone falling over from heat exhaustion on the Tour de France. So far, in the last two seasons, I haven't seen that reported. This has more to do with keeping ahead with your fluids then whether or not the person was wearing a helmet.

John
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Old 05-21-07, 03:52 AM
  #1510  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
If you were to see it anywhere, you'd see someone falling over from heat exhaustion on the Tour de France. So far, in the last two seasons, I haven't seen that reported. This has more to do with keeping ahead with your fluids then whether or not the person was wearing a helmet.

John
Might help to be superbly trained athletes whose vital signs are being constantly monitored and tended to by support vehicles too. IMO the TDF is the last place I would try to extrapolate information from to represent regular cyclists.
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Old 05-21-07, 07:59 AM
  #1511  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
... IMO the TDF is the last place I would try to extrapolate information from to represent regular cyclists.
How about the examples they have of the crashes they go through (mind you, few cars are involved) and get up unscathed (outside of superficial injury)?

So many times, so many years, so fast and so hard, and for all but the last couple of years, no helmets.

I swear, if Lance had been wearing a helmet when that boys bag snagged his handlebar, the cry would have been, the helmet saved his life!
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Old 05-21-07, 09:42 AM
  #1512  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
How about the examples they have of the crashes they go through (mind you, few cars are involved) and get up unscathed (outside of superficial injury)?

So many times, so many years, so fast and so hard, and for all but the last couple of years, no helmets.

I swear, if Lance had been wearing a helmet when that boys bag snagged his handlebar, the cry would have been, the helmet saved his life!
I'll second that.......but the next comment from the helmet junkies will be......"but they are professionals and they know how to fall safely and avoid injury"!
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Old 05-21-07, 09:51 AM
  #1513  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
If you were to see it anywhere, you'd see someone falling over from heat exhaustion on the Tour de France. So far, in the last two seasons, I haven't seen that reported. This has more to do with keeping ahead with your fluids then whether or not the person was wearing a helmet.

John

Well....I never mentioned the TDF. There have been times when I have run short on fluids and have been several miles out in the middle of nowhere (not a house in sight) and no water source. Helmets make you hotter especially when hill climbing. I don't see the reason to wear one riding at 6 mph up a hill. Unless of course we need to use them when walking too!.


I think I am going to take some old TV styrofoam packing material and duct tape it together and make a protest helmet. Actually it would probably stay together better, on impact.
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Old 05-21-07, 11:55 AM
  #1514  
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I think anyone who doesn't use a bicycle helmet is ignorant. I personally think most of the bicycle helmets out there are quite stylish. Maybe I use one 'cause it save me from a nasty headbruise when I was seven.

It makes me happy to see kids (and people in general) wearing helmets, it means the message is getting through. On the other hand, for every helmet wearing biker there's at least four that don't wear the cheap life insurence. In Finland 25% of bikers wear helmets, way to few. The bureau of traffic safety has tried extensive campaings to increase the usage of bicycle helmets, but so far in vein. According to statistics no biker in Finland has ever died of headtrauma while wearing a helmet.

It's bisturbing to see the kids riding bikes with the helmet just dangling on the handlebars. They obviously own a helmet, but they don't use it because it doesen't look cool or something like that.
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Old 05-21-07, 12:27 PM
  #1515  
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well if a definition of ignorant is uneducated in general, I wonder about those who are that in the realm of bicycle helmets, making judgements on those who choose not to wear them.

Irony come to mind.
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Old 05-21-07, 12:54 PM
  #1516  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
well if a definition of ignorant is uneducated in general, I wonder about those who are that in the realm of bicycle helmets, making judgements on those who choose not to wear them.

Irony come to mind.
Ironic that most helmet users are actually well off and well educated. I"m no different, my university degree and 6 figure salary (CDN $) puts me right in that demographic.
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Old 05-21-07, 01:47 PM
  #1517  
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judging from the logic, reasoning and supporting evidence posted here, I'm guessing a university degree doesn't mean much.

At least ignorance can be rectified.
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Old 05-21-07, 02:27 PM
  #1518  
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Originally Posted by jakub.ner
Not sure what Magma is. AFAIK it's a hosting service where this person posts links to information regarding helmets...
Magma Communications is a full-service internet company offering high speed access, email solutions, site hosting, server colocation, dedicated servers, managed system ...etc.

It hosts the vehiclular cyclist, originally know as The Ontario Coalition for Better Cycling (now defunct).

OCBC is no longer active as an organization because its principal purpose, to fight a mandatory helmet law is over and a partial victory won in 1995. It briefly reformed in 2004 through 2005 to fight a proposal to extend Ontario's child helmet law to include adults. The ensuing campaign was successful and the private member's bill died before it reached third and final reading in the legislature.

The current web site still subscribes to the OCBC philosophy and continues to be maintained as a source of accident research and opinion.

In carrying out its mandate, the OCBC compiled considerable amount of research on cycling accidents and their causes, and helmets and their effectiveness, some of which was original research. Because of the value of this research and the importance of fighting helmet laws everywhere, for the forseeable future, this site will be maintained and added to as relevant new information becomes available.

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Old 05-21-07, 02:43 PM
  #1519  
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Ironic that most helmet users are actually well off and well educated. I"m no different, my university degree and 6 figure salary (CDN $) puts me right in that demographic.
All goes to prove that even a university degree and 6 figure salary doesn't prevent a self righteous Safety Nanny from braying/bragging about his ignorance.
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Old 05-21-07, 03:30 PM
  #1520  
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I think anyone who doesn't use a bicycle helmet is ignorant.
Seems to me that the "pro-choice" folks tend to be anything but ignorant on the subject. The amount of research posted on this thread would seem to support that view. IMO, it's the "If you don't wear a helmet you're a moron!!!" crowd that is basing their argument, if that word is not too dignified, upon hearsay, peer reinforcement, and personal anecdote.

I personally think most of the bicycle helmets out there are quite stylish. Maybe I use one 'cause it save me from a nasty headbruise when I was seven.
At least you're not part of the 102% of the modern cycling population that would have died if not for a helmet.

According to statistics no biker in Finland has ever died of headtrauma while wearing a helmet.
Um, sure. Guess I won't hold my breath waiting for a cite for that one.
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Old 05-21-07, 03:39 PM
  #1521  
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Ironic that most helmet users are actually well off and well educated.
Or that one.

I"m no different, my university degree and 6 figure salary (CDN $) puts me right in that demographic.
So 100,000 CDN is like, what, $30,000 USD?

Anyway, George Bush has a uiversity degree and a six figure salary, so I'm not exactly overwhelmed by your qualifications. Ha!
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Old 05-21-07, 05:58 PM
  #1522  
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smarts and parts

I'm not convinced helmet users are all highly paid or even educated past high school. Not to mention, who ever said college graduates were intelligent? Quite a few people have stated to me that the average college graduate, has an education equivalent to a high school education of 50 years ago.

In my own case, I had some post high school education and I am finding that the average person does not read much after their formal eduacation ceases. Its long been my contention that college is merely expensive expeditions to the library and a whole bunch of writing, coupled with regular consumption of alcohol and a quest for gratification of one kind or another. Of course this takes place at Mom and Dads expense in the hope that junior will make something of himself. Its a shame really but not true in every case, so please, don't crucify me. Just food for thought
.
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Old 05-22-07, 06:20 AM
  #1523  
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Originally Posted by Little_T
I think anyone who doesn't use a bicycle helmet is ignorant ...
Please stop being ignorant and take a good look at the research regarding the styrofoam lid you're promoting.

Neither will your duvet protect you from the boogey man in the corner, nor the helmet protect you from brain injury. It will help against superficial lacerations though.

I think anyone that exagerates helmet's ability to protect is ignorant: especially without basis for their argument. What exactly was your argument? Just a blank statement?

This sort of hand waving leads to ignorant riders thinking they are safer than they really are.

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Old 05-22-07, 06:40 AM
  #1524  
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Originally Posted by charles vail
In my own case, I had some post high school education and I am finding that the average person does not read much after their formal eduacation ceases. Its long been my contention that college is merely expensive expeditions to the library and a whole bunch of writing, coupled with regular consumption of alcohol and a quest for gratification of one kind or another. Of course this takes place at Mom and Dads expense in the hope that junior will make something of himself. Its a shame really but not true in every case, so please, don't crucify me. Just food for thought[/SIZE][/FONT].


Nice! My interests and choices focused me on becoming an engineer; which helps me look at this issue objectively.

Education (and I don't mean solely formal education here) promotes search for truth. Combats ignorance by providing the tools for finding out answers, arguing your point of view, and challenging poor assumptions. It's no surprise students are the most eager to mobilize in protest: youth may play a factor here too .

I don't like legistlation argued based on bad science or no science at all (marketing?). Calling people ignorant when you bring nothing to the argument is just bad. If a styrofoam lid could prevent brain injury I would be very happy. I really would prefer to loose this argument. But not by silly arguments that have no merit, statistics that have been debunked (yes, the 85% figure), and anecdotes. That would serve no one except several corporations.
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Old 05-22-07, 06:43 AM
  #1525  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
judging from the logic, reasoning and supporting evidence posted here, I'm guessing a university degree doesn't mean much.
You must be hearing from the English majors.

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