spare_wheel

i get some grief on BF because i am opposed to low occupancy vehicle use. interestingly, one of the myths i hear from the "north american bike sidewalk mafia" is that european bike advocates are not anti-car. apparently, all it took to increase cycling mode share in europe was a few cycletracks here and there. this is of course complete fantasy. european urbanism is virulently anti-car: penurious taxes, parking removal, road demolition, car exclusion zones, billions spent on infrastructure, and outright cash-money subsidy of cycling.

to illustrate some genuine european bike advocacy i offer this sermon from mikael colville anderson:

Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Culture by Design: Car Industry Strikes Back - Smart Hates Peds

preach!

kickstart

Well the cities they didn't manage to destroy in their prolific wars pre date the automobile, so its more of a case of getting back to what once was. Outside of a few major city centers it just wouldn't work here.

El Cid

Well that does sound pretty anti-car, but I bet the average person in Europe isn't so extreme. My sister lives in Holland, and nobody I've met there has any real car hatred.

One thing about big European cities though, is that they're old. Thousands of years in some cases, and nobody could have conceived of how busy things would get. Those old city cores just aren't suitable for cars because of their small, compact size. When I go through the cobblestone streets of Amsterdam, I feel like I'm walking through a series of alleys more than actual streets. But get out on the highway, and it looks more or less like home -- four lanes of solid traffic in both directions.

I'm pretty sure most Europeans don't hate cars. They probably just don't want the hassle and the expense. I think they're also a bit smarter about urban planning over there, so people have more viable options.

mr_bill

-mr. bill

spare_wheel

I agree that the average person is not so hostile but I think there is a bit more hostility than US citizens realize. The protests of the 70s and 80s were not calm and placid affairs. And even today people in europe will shut part of a city down to protest car bias. A video of a recent protest in Antwerp that shut down a major arterial when a city council member suggested that cyclists should ride less busy roads:

Cyclists stage mass protest in Antwerp on Vimeo

Look at the scale of that protest!

Marcus_Ti

Sure it could work here. But it would be a massive infrastructure project.

The streets of Paris that Americans so love? Wide tree-lined boulevards and so on? Only came about due to the whole sale usage of what we in the USA today call,"eminent domain" and the en masse demolition of entire city blocks to do the complete redesign of Paris in the 19th century. And it wasn't overnight, it took the better part of 20 years and 3 phases across several different governments. Paris before that was a labyrinthine maze of medieval era alleyways. The redesign of Paris cost billions, and required not only Parisian funds, but money from the national government as well....and due to people being eminent-domain'd out of their houses/apartments-there was LOTS of controversy and lots of court dates...and the chief architect of it all Haussman was a very controversial fellow.


In the USA our problems are:

A) No political will to spend any money. And infrastructure to reduce our utter reliance on cars is a big $$$$$$$ investment.
B) The general acceptance of cars as a necessary evil that everyone needs to simply exist...although with $4/gas this acceptance is souring.
C) No desire to upset the apple cart politically by elected officials in fear for their jobs.

mikeybikes

Anti-car policies do nothing but alienate those pushing for more cycling from a large portion of the populace. Anti-car policies should not be pushed by cycling advocates. Leave that to other groups.

A good example of how cycling can be encouraged without anti-car policies: A view from the cycle path: Does free car parking make people drive cars ? Certainly not when there is a better alternative

...
And there's this:
Read the article. It's rather interesting, especially considering Assen was largely developed after the second world war at a time when traffic engineers, even in the Netherlands, were designing roads for cars.

nelson249

At some point to make cities sustainable there MUST be some anti-car policies that need to be enacted to make it difficult to actually use a car effectively like restricting speed, eliminating parking spaces. In the other words it needs to be so damned difficult to drive that people we have little choice but to seek alternatives.

kickstart

There's a lot of great things about Europeans, but they do have their issues too.
Having lived in Germany and France, my impression is that Europeans do tend to be more obsessive about their passions, whine louder about their dislikes, and have more of a heard mentality. They also tend to get more violent when they protest.

We can learn from them, but it would be a mistake to try to emulate them.

kickstart

I suspect integrated autonomous EVs will address most "sustainability" and "safety" issues, and may actually increase personal vehicle usage because travel time will be available for other activities such as sleeping, eating, communicating, working, ect.

B. Carfree

I'll grant that increased safety is likely to occur from autonomous cars, but making them electric is simply making them coal-powered transportation and that is about as far from sustainable as possible.

Juha

Europe, and even the EU is a bit more than Germany + France.

mikeybikes

That may be. We, however, need to be careful so that it doesn't look like cycling advocates are pushing for anti-car policies. There are plenty of environment groups out there to do that for us. The last thing we need is the large exclusive-motoring public against us.

VTBike

Without going into personal details, let's just say that I am qualified to represent both American and European perspectives on cars. The short answer is this: Both Americans and Europeans have a passion for cars. Don't underestimate how deep the European's passion can be. Just look at the ratings for the television show Top Gear in the UK, or the German's affinity for BMWs and Mercedes. How about the Italian's passion for fast and sexy cars?

On the other hand, there is no doubt that the cost of car ownership in Europe is high due to governmental taxation policies. This tends to manifest itself in smaller cars, however - and not fewer cars.

But Europeans own fewer cars, you say? That is not true: It's Official: Western Europeans Have More Cars Per Person Than Americans - The Atlantic

This is especially surprising when you realize how superior public transportation is in Europe. IMHO, bicycling has taken off in certain areas in Europe because of post-war history combined with compelling infrastructure. Not because Europeans aren't as car-centric. People like John Forester could learn a lot from this reality.

As far as the blog entry that began this thread - you can always find somebody on the end of the bell curve. It's the overall bell curve that is important, though - and in this case it belies the fact that Europeans love their cars and love driving their cars. They like their cars as much as we like our guns.

rydabent

Why should we care what people in Europe think?

-=(8)=-

Developers have deep pockets and own the members of certain zoning boards in every state. They are by and large responsible for the inefficient way our country has built out. The money they pay to further their agenda is much less than what they should be paying for road improvements. Anyone whose ever been to a zoning meeting will verify that. After working on a committee to get developers to play fair and witnessing the antics they pull to not have to do so, I feel any development project should be required to facilitate alt trans or money be put into a general fund to improve already existing infrastructure before they can proceed.

Marcus_Ti

That Cars per capita numbers need put in perspective. The USA anyway CPP numbers have been falling off since the 1970s. The USA used to have 1 CPP, it has plummeted by 50% since then.

And for the record no the Europeans don't like cars as much as we like our guns. Especially if per capita numbers are your gauge. Currently in the USA, the best reasoned deductions about per capita *** ownership in the USA is well over 1.0 (In the land of double cars per capita). However, according to Gallup and most polling agencies only 1/2 of American households have a single firearm in them. Which means that 1/2 of Americans don't care for guns and their household has none, the other half of househoilds on average have about least 8 guns (average household is 4 people, 1 *** per capita to start with, plus making up the non-***-household's weapons collection). Do half of EU households have 5+ cars, and the other half none?

Further just because people watch a TV show doesn't make them passionate. Some of my coworkers watch that motorcycle chopper show. None of them get within 10ft of any kind of motorcycle. TV, at least in the USA anyway is an abyss. Top Gear is kind of fun to watch, but people here tolerate cars for the most part. They're something you need to get to work/shop and not much more to most people.

VTBike

A) Because that is what this thread is about. If you are going to post in a thread about what Europeans think, it's absurd to complain about this.
B) Because Europeans have many success stories when it comes to bicycling. I see no reason to be willingly ignorant of this.

VTBike

There are so many logical flaws with what you have said that my head is spinning. You do realize that it's easier to own eight guns than eight cars, no? In any event, the statement was poetic license and not meant to open a debate on the exact statistics. Sheesh.

The bottom line is that I am VERY familiar with both places. Both places love cars. It's that simple. You can argue the particulars all you want, but you can't argue the premise.

kickstart

Sustainable doesn't mean no impact, that's just a childish fantasy, even public transportation uses resources. Also socioeconomic and geographical realities will mean active transportation will always be limited....unless we go back to a dispersed agrarian society.

mconlonx

My feeling as well. As an example, vulnerable road user bills. I'd rather see them become more general distracted driving laws or amendments to existing laws such that penalties are stricter. Don't care if someone mows down a ped, cyclist, motorcyclist, or car/light truck occupant while texting -- all offenders should face the same penalties regardless of victim mode of transport. And it would be easier to get more people on board with such changes if it included motorists.

I-Like-To-Bike

True, and the the population of cyclists and their personal viewpoints about the use of motorized vehicles, as well as other OT economic and social issues, are far more varied than represented by the emotional posts in BF by several social or cultural misfits.

rydabent

vt

So are you saying that if some Europeans hate cars, we here in the US should do so also?

VTBike

Uh.... No. All I said is that there is a bell curve and that it is a myth to think that Europeans generally do not like cars. That's it. If someone wants to hate cars, that's fine. My criticism is when advocates let their personal bias overcome effective advocacy.

-=(8)=-

Mine too . . . If they think we are ever even going to be considered as 'equals' they are very far away from reality.