Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

The Helmet Thread 2

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.
View Poll Results: What Are Your Helmet Wearing Habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
52
10.40%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
24
4.80%
I've always worn a helmet
208
41.60%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
126
25.20%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
90
18.00%
Voters: 500. You may not vote on this poll

The Helmet Thread 2

Old 01-12-18, 11:40 PM
  #2651  
Member
 
PanoramicPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 37

Bikes: 2017 Trek Crossrip 1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JeffOYB
I was just wondering why ppl single out biking. Like, if in the past you'd hit your head often while biking. Or maybe as an adult you feel slightly wobbly on a bike and so want to armor up a bit. I'm trying to see if there's any connection to be found to biking. If there isn't then maybe the angle is just pick any activity randomly?

I can understand -- like anyone can -- that it's really bad to get a head injury. But I just don't know when to wear the helmet. Personally, I've slipped most often in my driveway.

As was just posted after your post, 98% of TBI's are from non-biking, so I just don't see the biking connection.

Helmets are also really common for rollerblading. Less so for ice-skating but they'd fit there, too. ...The old "whoops out go the feet!" fall is probably a common source of TBI for all types of skating.

Tripping, slipping, being in cars, and peds being hit by cars -- bet those are the most common TBI sources.
You know people just don't pick activities at random for this sort of thing. Whether the reasons are valid or not we know they have one. Suggesting people just picked it at random with no thought is coming across as quite snide. Most of my head impacts were off a bike as a kid, because I didn't learn to ride one till much later. But the more I do an activity, the more likely an accident will occur during said activity. Almost all impacts to my head (since riding became an everyday thing) were from riding. Nothing serious thanks to the helmet. Most people I know don't even touch a bike so they have little to no chance of having an injury from it. Me I'm on my bike everyday so my chances are way higher. Everyone goes to the bathroom, walks, or goes up stairs. So the pool of people in that accident percentage is far higher than adding in the very small minority of people that are cyclists. I'm not trying to paint cycling as dangerous and single it out. It just helps be feel safer and make my rides more enjoyable because of it.
PanoramicPixel is offline  
Old 01-13-18, 09:15 AM
  #2652  
Senior Member
 
JeffOYB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Williamston, MI "Wee-um-stun"
Posts: 727

Bikes: Uh... road, mtb, tour, CX (kludged), 3spd, 'bent, tandem, folder (the fam has another, what, 8)

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill
First:

I can point to *many* studies on the effectiveness of helmets in many applications.

I am unaware of a single study on the effectiveness of house helmets, stair helmets, bathtub helmets, sidewalk helmets etc.... If there are any, at all, would you like to share cites?

Second:

As far as most cars still in use don't have full airbag protections, that's been untrue for some time. In 2006, well over half of cars sold in the US had side airbags. Since 2010, 100% have. We've crossed the threshold of where most registered vehicles have the "full complement" of front/side airbags. ...

-mr. bill
Good to hear that airbag cars aren't helped by helmets. A lot of 1990's/etc era cars are still used. Our family fleet has 2 cars w bags, 2 without. I agree that eventually they all will have. Until pre-bag cars age out probably drivers should wear helmets. I wonder if some seatbelts are also better than others -- like the race-car type. If ppl care about safety they shd use better seatbelts.

As for helmets in the likely slip'n'fall scenarios of daily life -- or for trail walkers and runners, which is more of a hobby -- it's not done because users would consider it a bother even though it wd prolly save billions$ in TBI costs. They might however be persuaded if they were nagged enough. One wd need to mount a equivalent campaign that hobbies have.
JeffOYB is offline  
Old 01-13-18, 12:06 PM
  #2653  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
So your answer is there are no studies on shower helmets etc....

I prefer health policy to be based on facts.

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 06:44 AM
  #2654  
Senior Member
 
CarinusMalmari's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1662 Post(s)
Liked 226 Times in 131 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill
So your answer is there are no studies on shower helmets etc....

I prefer health policy to be based on facts.

-mr. bill
Are you implying that bicycle helmets are "Evidence Based Medicine™" now?
CarinusMalmari is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 09:09 AM
  #2655  
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by JeffOYB
Good to hear that airbag cars aren't helped by helmets. A lot of 1990's/etc era cars are still used. Our family fleet has 2 cars w bags, 2 without. I agree that eventually they all will have. Until pre-bag cars age out probably drivers should wear helmets. I wonder if some seatbelts are also better than others -- like the race-car type. If ppl care about safety they shd use better seatbelts.

As for helmets in the likely slip'n'fall scenarios of daily life -- or for trail walkers and runners, which is more of a hobby -- it's not done because users would consider it a bother even though it wd prolly save billions$ in TBI costs. They might however be persuaded if they were nagged enough. One wd need to mount a equivalent campaign that hobbies have.
That's likely dubious. "For the head-injured occupant at all injury severity levels (Figures 1, ​,3,3, and ​and5),5), the belt restrained and airbag- and belt restrained occupant demonstrated consistently less than half the percentage of injuries compared to the unrestrained population".

"Less than half" means that the airbags and seatbelts do appear to reduce head injuries, they don't eliminate them by any stretch.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 09:16 AM
  #2656  
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by prathmann
That's scary. Looks like I should have a bicycle-related ER visit about once every couple years but I haven't had a single one over the last 55 years. So I'm overdue for dozens of ER visits .
We cut the incidents way down by being healthy adults and riding with sanity and full command of our faculties. You can dig into the causes of bike accidents - all of those things that you never do on a bike like riding drunk, wrong way at night without lights etc - eliminate those and it might be hundreds of thousands miles per ER visit.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 10:26 AM
  #2657  
Senior Member
 
wingless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 343

Bikes: 2011 Trek 1.2 + 2016 Trek 1.1 H2

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts
My head is waaay too important to me (even though I have a face for radio), so I always wear a helmet when riding a bicycle or motorcycle, even though there is not a requirement to wear one.

Every time I purchase a new helmet I always select the model that is best suited to my application.

Thank goodness, in over a half century of two-wheeled operation my head has yet to touch the ground.

This topic shows my Bell Z20 helmet. I am very happy w/ this helmet and wouldn't hesitate to recommend this product.

People have the right to choose to obey helmet laws, or not. They have the right to lobby for or against helmet laws. In many locations people have the right to choose to wear helmets or not.

IMO, adults should have the right (continue to maintain the right) to decide on wearing a helmet or not. I also support the requirement that mandates children wearing helmets.
wingless is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 12:31 PM
  #2658  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton
That's likely dubious. "For the head-injured occupant at all injury severity levels (Figures 1, ​,3,3, and ​and5),5), the belt restrained and airbag- and belt restrained occupant demonstrated consistently less than half the percentage of injuries compared to the unrestrained population".

"Less than half" means that the airbags and seatbelts do appear to reduce head injuries, they don't eliminate them by any stretch.
2nd generation airbags were mandated in 1998. The paper you quote studied crashes from 1991-1998.

Again, there are NO studies of the effectiveness of helmets + seatbelts + airbags of passenger cars on public roads.

Just as there are NO studies of the effectiveness of shower helmets.

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 12:34 PM
  #2659  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari
Are you implying that bicycle helmets are "Evidence Based Medicine™" now?
Implying? Flat out stating that the evidence supports the effectiveness of automobile seatbelts+airbags, motorcycle helmets, equestrian helmets, bicycle helmets, etc.

There is no evidence supporting shower helmets, stairway helmets, etc....

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 01-14-18, 11:36 PM
  #2660  
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill
2nd generation airbags were mandated in 1998. The paper you quote studied crashes from 1991-1998.

Again, there are NO studies of the effectiveness of helmets + seatbelts + airbags of passenger cars on public roads.

Just as there are NO studies of the effectiveness of shower helmets.

-mr. bill
But more to the point, there are studies showing the incidence of head injury in car accidents. Previously cited here, the driver's risk of head injury is not extremely different than that of the cyclist.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 01-15-18, 02:37 AM
  #2661  
Senior Member
 
CarinusMalmari's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1662 Post(s)
Liked 226 Times in 131 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill
Implying? Flat out stating that the evidence supports the effectiveness of automobile seatbelts+airbags, motorcycle helmets, equestrian helmets, bicycle helmets, etc.

There is no evidence supporting shower helmets, stairway helmets, etc....

-mr. bill
There's no conclusive evidence that proves bicycle helmets even work at all. there's some research that suggest they might have some netto positive effect, but that's the extent of you evidence-based "proof" bicycle helmets work.
CarinusMalmari is offline  
Old 01-15-18, 05:45 AM
  #2662  
Banned.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: France
Posts: 1,030

Bikes: Brompton, Time, Bianchi, Jan Janssen, Peugeot

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 598 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
What do you mean by « conclusive evidence »? There certainly is a lot of evidence.

Perhaps you could provide some links to the research you found?
avole is offline  
Old 01-15-18, 07:38 AM
  #2663  
Senior Member
 
CarinusMalmari's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1662 Post(s)
Liked 226 Times in 131 Posts
Originally Posted by avole
What do you mean by « conclusive evidence »? There certainly is a lot of evidence.

Perhaps you could provide some links to the research you found?
Proving the non-existent is kinda hard (read "de facto impossible") so it's kind of unreasonable to ask me to do just that. Besides: the helmet fanboys are the ones who make the claims, and should provide the evidence. Which shouldn't be a problem, since there's said to be "a lot of evidence" and bicycle helmets are apparently even "Evidence Based Medicine™"

Note that I in fact do think that despite their laughably flawed design , I do think that bicycle helmets do have a positive netto outcome on bicycle accidents.
CarinusMalmari is offline  
Old 01-15-18, 08:14 AM
  #2664  
Senior Member
 
JonathanGennick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Munising, Michigan, USA
Posts: 4,131

Bikes: Priority 600, Priority Continuum, Devinci Dexter

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 685 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 55 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by Steamtrain76
I believe the big downfall with the "Helmet" topic .... is that is often left as simple as "wear your hemet...be safe"
Yes. +1. I don't usually participate in this thread, but you have hit on a point I have also noticed. That point is the helmet as a talisman. Wear it, and you are seen as being safe. Helmets become a sort of lucky charm that we hyperfocus on while losing the big picture.
JonathanGennick is offline  
Old 01-16-18, 07:10 AM
  #2665  
Senior Member
 
Stadjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Groningen
Posts: 1,308

Bikes: Gazelle rod brakes, Batavus compact, Peugeot hybrid

Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6038 Post(s)
Liked 969 Times in 742 Posts
Originally Posted by JeffOYB
the by-far #1 hugest source of head injury is the bathroom -- if safety was actually anyone's concern, it seems likely that in one year that billions$ could be saved if everyone was mandated to have a helmet on a hook outside their bathrooms. i suppose it would be ok to take it off during haircare but otherwise, get it back on right away.
That's where the vents are for, so you can be safe all the time in the dangerous environment of you bathroom.

One could argue it's none of my business if someone wants to wear his bathroom helmet on a bike, but if I see one I have to wonder what he's up to. Is he planning to hit someone on purpose, or is he planning on reckless and dangerous riding? Shouldn't he consider the safety of others more and concentrate on avoiding accidents?
Stadjer is offline  
Old 01-16-18, 09:44 AM
  #2666  
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
Just some facts about bathroom accidents.

Bathroom related ER visits in 2008: 234,000
Percentage related to falls: 81%
Head or neck injured: 31%

from the CDC statistics

Compare to approximately 418,000 bicycle-related ER visits in 2009. About the same rate of hospitalization (16% vs 13%), but cycling has a lower percentage of head injury than bathing. (19% involving intracranial head injury - see Table 3 and the last bullet point)

I'll point out that there are more people taking baths and showers than there are cyclists, and generally they do it more frequently than bicycle trips, so there is less risk taking one shower than one bike ride. But the overall magnitude of the number of injuries is similar, and extrapolated head and neck injuries are nearly the same.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 01-16-18, 09:45 AM
  #2667  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Any studies demonstrating the effectiveness of bathroom/shower/bathtub helmets?

crickets

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 01-16-18, 09:48 AM
  #2668  
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill
Any studies demonstrating the effectiveness of bathroom/shower/bathtub helmets?

crickets

-mr. bill
No one really cares. That's the point.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 01-16-18, 10:19 AM
  #2669  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton
No one really cares. That's the point.
Actually, lots of people care. Particularly of 65 and older, there have been MANY studies on how to reduce fall injuries, particularly bathroom injuries.

FACT BASED recommendations

What isn't in that set of FACT BASED recommendations? Shower helmets.

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 01-22-18, 02:53 PM
  #2670  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by wingless
My head is waaay too important to me (even though I have a face for radio), so I always wear a helmet when riding a bicycle or motorcycle, even though there is not a requirement to wear one.

Every time I purchase a new helmet I always select the model that is best suited to my application.

Thank goodness, in over a half century of two-wheeled operation my head has yet to touch the ground.
This topic[/URL] shows my Bell Z20 helmet. I am very happy w/ this helmet and wouldn't hesitate to recommend this product.

People have the right to choose to obey helmet laws, or not. They have the right to lobby for or against helmet laws. In many locations people have the right to choose to wear helmets or not.

IMO, adults should have the right (continue to maintain the right) to decide on wearing a helmet or not. I also support the requirement that mandates children wearing helmets.
+1, with the exception that my head has hit the ground. Last year, when riding downhil on an unlit trail in Golden Gate Park, right after a big storm. Hit a huge new pothole and flew. Some pretty bad road rash and hit my head, but my head was well protected by an old Bell Alchera.
emptym is offline  
Old 01-23-18, 12:08 AM
  #2671  
Banned.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: France
Posts: 1,030

Bikes: Brompton, Time, Bianchi, Jan Janssen, Peugeot

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 598 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by wingless
My head is waaay too important to me (even though I have a face for radio), so I always wear a helmet when riding a bicycle or motorcycle, even though there is not a requirement to wear one.

Every time I purchase a new helmet I always select the model that is best suited to my application.

Thank goodness, in over a half century of two-wheeled operation my head has yet to touch the ground.

This topic shows my Bell Z20 helmet. I am very happy w/ this helmet and wouldn't hesitate to recommend this product.

People have the right to choose to obey helmet laws, or not. They have the right to lobby for or against helmet laws. In many locations people have the right to choose to wear helmets or not.

IMO, adults should have the right (continue to maintain the right) to decide on wearing a helmet or not. I also support the requirement that mandates children wearing helmets.
People do not have the right to ignore laws in almost every other country on our planet. If you do, you are given whatever the penalty attached to the law is, and there’s little you can do about it. Surely you mean peoplc can choose to ignore a law, and pay the penalty.
avole is offline  
Old 01-23-18, 09:55 AM
  #2672  
Senior Member
 
wingless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 343

Bikes: 2011 Trek 1.2 + 2016 Trek 1.1 H2

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by wingless
My head is waaay too important to me (even though I have a face for radio), so I always wear a helmet when riding a bicycle or motorcycle, even though there is not a requirement to wear one.

Every time I purchase a new helmet I always select the model that is best suited to my application.

Thank goodness, in over a half century of two-wheeled operation my head has yet to touch the ground.

This topic shows my Bell Z20 helmet. I am very happy w/ this helmet and wouldn't hesitate to recommend this product.

People have the right to choose to obey helmet laws, or not. They have the right to lobby for or against helmet laws. In many locations people have the right to choose to wear helmets or not.

IMO, adults should have the right (continue to maintain the right) to decide on wearing a helmet or not. I also support the requirement that mandates children wearing helmets.
Originally Posted by avole
Surely you mean people can choose to ignore a law, and pay the penalty.
Please enjoy living in France.

Thanks, but I have an acceptable command of language and stand by my words.

In both the USA (all states) and in France, adults maintain the legal right to decide on their own helmet usage.
wingless is offline  
Old 01-30-18, 08:28 AM
  #2673  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by wingless
Please enjoy living in France.

Thanks, but I have an acceptable command of language and stand by my words.

In both the USA (all states) and in France, adults maintain the legal right to decide on their own helmet usage.
Originally Posted by iihs
Many cities have local ordinances that require bicycle helmets for some or all riders.
Originally Posted by mr_bill
Back from another trip to Seattle and a ride courtesy of Timbuk2.

I do not understand West Coast Capitalists - free loaner bike, free loaner bag, free loaner Kryptonite u-lock, even free loaner toolkit for as long as open-to-close. Also free helmet, leading to an interesting misunderstanding:

"I don't need a helmet."
"Oh yes you do, in Seattle you have to have one. It's the law."
"I know but I brought my own helmet."
"Oh, that's all right then."
I have no practical way to lobby Seattle to change their laws. That's up to the people of Seattle.

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 02-08-18, 01:33 PM
  #2674  
Banned.
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: France
Posts: 1,030

Bikes: Brompton, Time, Bianchi, Jan Janssen, Peugeot

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 598 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by wingless
Please enjoy living in France.

Thanks, but I have an acceptable command of language and stand by my words.

In both the USA (all states) and in France, adults maintain the legal right to decide on their own helmet usage.
Yet your own words deny this. You do not have the write to disobey any law.

Can I suggest night school?
avole is offline  
Old 02-08-18, 07:39 PM
  #2675  
Senior Member
 
curbtender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, East bay
Posts: 7,771

Bikes: Miyata 618 GT, Marinoni, Kestral 200 2002 Trek 5200, KHS Flite, Koga Miyata, Schwinn Spitfire 5, Mondia Special, Univega Alpina, Miyata team Ti, Santa Cruz Highball

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1640 Post(s)
Liked 2,746 Times in 1,275 Posts
Ummm, right. Unless you are making the law...
curbtender is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.