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The Helmet Thread 2

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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.
View Poll Results: What Are Your Helmet Wearing Habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
52
10.40%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
24
4.80%
I've always worn a helmet
208
41.60%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
126
25.20%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
90
18.00%
Voters: 500. You may not vote on this poll

The Helmet Thread 2

Old 02-08-15, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Sounds like some people will not be convinced until they see a bonafida study done of a significant number of subjects doing identical crashes, half with and half without helmets. Summarizing the data from random events will never "prove" anything, allowing everyone to stay smug in their opinions.
Look:

I've posted before and will post here: I wear a helmet most of the time. For my own reasons, based on my own experience.

It does not excuse the weak arguments full of quotes out of context and outright misrepresentations of fact presented by those arguing on either extreme of the issue, as frequently shows up here.

Them, I will argue with until their foolishness is widely apparent.

There are studies which indicate that helmets mitigate injury. There are those who wear helmets for the right reasons.

But there's a whole bunch who wear helmets thinking they are more protective and conducive to bicycle safety than they actually are. And plenty here who are willing to prey on such misconceptions out of some misguided notion that they are doing the world a favor, since doing so will supposedly encourage their belief in misguided helmet use. F' them, they deserve to be called out for their faulty logic, misrepresentation of fact, over-estimation of helmets where riding safety is concerned, as much as those who claim helmets do nothing regarding cycling safety.

Wear a helmet if you want, like I do, or don't. Your choice. But if you're going to argue your personal helmet use stance in public, do it well or get called out on it...
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Old 02-08-15, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
Yes I do have a problem with someone saying that people would be better off without a helmet than with a helmet... Especially when the word "many" is used in conjunction. While I agree that there are "some" instances, we have absolutely zero info as to how "many" that number would be... 0.01%, 1%, 10%...??? Thus it's just your "opinion" that wearing a helmet is/can be more dangerous than not wearing a helmet??? What % do you think the many times not wearing a helmet would be "better" when you crash, than when wearing a helmet would have been better, 10% 20%, 30%, 40%,...?

EDIT; Saying it's better to not wear a helmet is equal to saying the helmet saved my life... IMO Neither being very probable... Just saying.

EDIT 2: Hey, me not wearing my helmet saved my life, is that what you are saying?
350htrr, I am not saying one should not wear helmets. I always do. But think about it. Helmets are big. They hit things that sometimes our much smaller heads would miss. I hit an opening car door years ago. The edge of the door started to take my ear off, then the helmet hit the door, threw my head to the side, saved my ear and gave me a concussion. I suspect that with no helmet, I would have lost my ear but been spared a mild concussion. I have also a couple of times hit my helmet in routine slides when I am pretty certain my head would not have impacted the road had I not been wearing it. And I have hit helmets hard on construction sites and dazed myself on overheads I would have never touched without. That's all just fact. I also was in a bike crash years ago that brought me instant fame because I lived wearing the original Bell helmet. I did not realize the fame part. I had bigger issues. The head injury I sustained was very serious and recovery took years. But had I not been wearing it, it is near certain I would have died or become a vegetable. (Years later I got to have fun with that fame. I would walk into a shop for the first time and go to the helmet display. A salesman would come by and start telling me about my accident.)

In the big picture, concussions are small potatoes. Not wearing a helmet because it might cause a concussion is like not wearing a shoulder strap driving because they can crack sternums on a crash. Also small potatoes. I suspect if we crossed paths in real life, not forum lala land, we would agree on a lot more than it seems we do here.

Ben
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Old 02-08-15, 09:12 PM
  #1153  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
350htrr, I am not saying one should not wear helmets. I always do. But think about it. Helmets are big. They hit things that sometimes our much smaller heads would miss. I hit an opening car door years ago. The edge of the door started to take my ear off, then the helmet hit the door, threw my head to the side, saved my ear and gave me a concussion. I suspect that with no helmet, I would have lost my ear but been spared a mild concussion. I have also a couple of times hit my helmet in routine slides when I am pretty certain my head would not have impacted the road had I not been wearing it. And I have hit helmets hard on construction sites and dazed myself on overheads I would have never touched without. That's all just fact. I also was in a bike crash years ago that brought me instant fame because I lived wearing the original Bell helmet. I did not realize the fame part. I had bigger issues. The head injury I sustained was very serious and recovery took years. But had I not been wearing it, it is near certain I would have died or become a vegetable. (Years later I got to have fun with that fame. I would walk into a shop for the first time and go to the helmet display. A salesman would come by and start telling me about my accident.)

In the big picture, concussions are small potatoes. Not wearing a helmet because it might cause a concussion is like not wearing a shoulder strap driving because they can crack sternums on a crash. Also small potatoes. I suspect if we crossed paths in real life, not forum lala land, we would agree on a lot more than it seems we do here.

Ben
There you go, I can't/don't disagree with anything you just said... It was the word "many" that got me in a tizzy, to me it implied wearing a helmet was useless most often than not when head hits the pavement, and not wearing a helmet would have been "better" in most crashes... And yes, a ceratain small % of the time if one wasn't wearing a helmet the head without the helmet would not have hit the ground... I suspect a teeny-weeny small % of the time... JMO
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Old 02-11-15, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Look:

I've posted before and will post here: I wear a helmet most of the time. For my own reasons, based on my own experience.
Could not care less what your choice is.

Originally Posted by mconlonx
It does not excuse the weak arguments full of quotes out of context and outright misrepresentations of fact presented by those arguing on either extreme of the issue, as frequently shows up here.
Where extreme is defined as anyone who doesn't think that helmets prevent boo-boos on the one side, and anyone who thinks that helmets prevent more than boo-boos on the other side. Is it possible that your narrow definition is the issue here?

Originally Posted by mconlonx
There are studies which indicate that helmets mitigate injury. There are those who wear helmets for the right reasons.
And here's the crux. Who made you the helmet thread lines judge who gets to decide who wears helmets for the "right reasons" and who wears helmets for the "wrong reasons?"

Originally Posted by mconlonx
Wear a helmet if you want, like I do, or don't. Your choice. But if you're going to argue your personal helmet use stance in public, do it well or get called out on it...
You got called out for arguing that there are no studies when there are in fact studies.

-mr. bill
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Old 02-11-15, 11:44 AM
  #1155  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Where extreme is defined as anyone who doesn't think that helmets prevent boo-boos on the one side, and anyone who thinks that helmets prevent more than boo-boos on the other side. Is it possible that your narrow definition is the issue here?
No, my definition is much wider than that, but quite a bit shy of the evangelical helmeteer and the barehead helmet-safety-denier positions. Also, my definition goes quite a bit farther than "boo-boos."

Originally Posted by mr_bill
And here's the crux. Who made you the helmet thread lines judge who gets to decide who wears helmets for the "right reasons" and who wears helmets for the "wrong reasons?"
Judge for all the Helmet Threads? While I'd love that, I only express opinion. And obviously, my opinion is the correct one: pretty much anyone posting absolutes, whether it's "Helmets don't do a thing!" or "A helmet saved my life!" is wrong, or at least incorrect at a very basic level.

Originally Posted by mr_bill
You got called out for arguing that there are no studies when there are in fact studies.
I did state that there were studies which support helmet use as a means of mitigating cases where head injury occurs. Also, that I had not heard of a study specifically addressing concussion mitigation. And I amended my challenge statement based on your argument... which I obviously respected enough to do so. Which has in turn informed my continued reasoning for wearing a helmet. But as much as you accuse me of semantics (or was it rhetoric...?), it's also what you leaned on to prove my assertion false. You only get to "helmets likely mitigate concussion injury" from two sources: Thompson stating that helmets can help prevent injury in cases of A2S+ head injury, and a different source stating that "such injury classification likely includes concussion."

But still no source definitively stating "bicycle helmets mitigate concussion injury." Or did I miss that?
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Old 02-11-15, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
No, my definition is much wider than that, but quite a bit shy of the evangelical helmeteer and the barehead helmet-safety-denier positions. Also, my definition goes quite a bit farther than "boo-boos."



Judge for all the Helmet Threads? While I'd love that, I only express opinion. And obviously, my opinion is the correct one: pretty much anyone posting absolutes, whether it's "Helmets don't do a thing!" or "A helmet saved my life!" is wrong, or at least incorrect at a very basic level.



I did state that there were studies which support helmet use as a means of mitigating cases where head injury occurs. Also, that I had not heard of a study specifically addressing concussion mitigation. And I amended my challenge statement based on your argument... which I obviously respected enough to do so. Which has in turn informed my continued reasoning for wearing a helmet. But as much as you accuse me of semantics (or was it rhetoric...?), it's also what you leaned on to prove my assertion false. You only get to "helmets likely mitigate concussion injury" from two sources: Thompson stating that helmets can help prevent injury in cases of A2S+ head injury, and a different source stating that "such injury classification likely includes concussion."

But still no source definitively stating "bicycle helmets mitigate concussion injury." Or did I miss that?
Yet you still don't get what a "likely concussion" is. Sigh.

And btw, pay for your own snipe hunt. You'll want to get both the 1998 edition and the 2005 - update 2008 edition.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 02-11-15 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 02-11-15, 01:30 PM
  #1157  
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Nobody's won this debate yet? Weird.
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Old 02-12-15, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by prooftheory
Nobody's won this debate yet? Weird.
Honestly, I don't know what they are debating anymore. I thought the thread was all about leaving the decision to (not) wear a helmet up to the individual cyclist, but I'm obviously wrong.
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Old 02-17-15, 11:48 AM
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Not sure if this is the right place for this, but, as I am currently looking for a new helmet, I took special interest in this blog post. Since MIPS is the current buzz in helmet tech, and since I am personally intrigued by Kali's approach to helmet construction, I thought I'd invite some comments on the article and on these two technologies.
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Old 02-25-15, 12:26 PM
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False sense of safety

Helmets are additional armor but not a panacea.
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Old 03-14-15, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by WestRide
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but, as I am currently looking for a new helmet, I took special interest in this blog post. Since MIPS is the current buzz in helmet tech, and since I am personally intrigued by Kali's approach to helmet construction, I thought I'd invite some comments on the article and on these two technologies.
Since neither of these techs occur at price points in which I shop helmets, I generally discount them. MIPS is marketed on the common barehead contention that helmets don't help with and may exacerbate rotational injury, a key component in Traumatic Brain Injury. I don't buy the underlying argument, especially when helmet deniers post studies which have indicated that helmets help mitigate such injury regarding skateboard helmets and activity. While not directly comparable, forces and helmet construction are similar to bike situations -- I wear a more skate-styled helmet -- that I trust the cheap, non-MIPS equipped helmet I use will help in such situations.

The Kali system appears merely to be a substitute tech to standard helmet injury mitigation systems, with the main benefit being weight reduction. Since weight is not an issue regarding helmet use on my end, not enough tech benefit in which to invest.

The plus in all of this is that helmet companies are now marketing safety, not just light weight, vents, style, etc. Which may lead to better solutions. But regarding new tech outlined in the linked article? Not so much. I'll pay at least 50% less, more like 200%+ to get 98%+ of the protection vs. riding without a helmet at all.
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Old 04-12-15, 09:17 PM
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I used to wear helmet, but when I think cycling safety I just stop to use it .
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Old 04-13-15, 03:49 AM
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Ive never worn a helmet ..... i took martial arts as a kid, didnt stick with it, but do remember how to fall and roll .... in the last 3 years ive been tossed off my bike only twice, once not paying attention and hitting a peice of the curb, and the other when a car clipped me from the left . both times , even tho i wasnt expecting the fall, i guess the old training kicked in cause i fell and rolled like in martial arts class and avoided hitting my head ... 1 guy even asked me if i took martial arts the way i fell .... so the moral of the story is dont get a helmet, take martial arts . lol ............ thinking of getting a job as a bike messenger tho, so they require helmets .... if i do i may wear it on recreational/ commuting rides also ....
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Old 04-14-15, 06:42 AM
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For a long time there were no posts on this thread. I kind of hoped the anti helmet people decided to quit trying to talk people out of wearing helmets.
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Old 04-14-15, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DjFantom
Ive never worn a helmet ..... i took martial arts as a kid, didnt stick with it, but do remember how to fall and roll .... in the last 3 years ive been tossed off my bike only twice, once not paying attention and hitting a peice of the curb, and the other when a car clipped me from the left . both times , even tho i wasnt expecting the fall, i guess the old training kicked in cause i fell and rolled like in martial arts class and avoided hitting my head ... 1 guy even asked me if i took martial arts the way i fell .... so the moral of the story is dont get a helmet, take martial arts . lol ............ thinking of getting a job as a bike messenger tho, so they require helmets .... if i do i may wear it on recreational/ commuting rides also ....
It's been mentioned before

But it does raise the question, which method is objectively safer? Martial arts training with less chance of hitting your head, or untrained with a helmet with a greater chance of hitting your helmet and possibly still suffering an injury?
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Old 04-14-15, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
For a long time there were no posts on this thread. I kind of hoped the anti helmet people decided to quit trying to talk people out of wearing helmets.
Who is trying to talk people out of wearing helmets?
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Old 04-14-15, 09:25 AM
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And the helmet thread awakens from its late winter's nap.

I'll have your coffee ready, when you get out of the shower.
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Old 04-14-15, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
It's been mentioned before

But it does raise the question, which method is objectively safer? Martial arts training with less chance of hitting your head, or untrained with a helmet with a greater chance of hitting your helmet and possibly still suffering an injury?
Just a FYI im not trying to persuade people not to wear helmets . i would prefer they do. i personaly dont, even tho i should on some of the streets i ride ... the whole martial arts thing is partially a joke, tho it did help me in my particular situations .. proper falling technique does not guarantee you not to hit your head, or hurt other areas ... in my last fall i dislocated my shoulder and bruised my rotator cuff .... On this matter I dont feel anyone should be trying to sway anyone either way . its all up to personal preference.
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Old 04-14-15, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DjFantom
Just a FYI im not trying to persuade people not to wear helmets . i would prefer they do. i personaly dont, even tho i should on some of the streets i ride ... the whole martial arts thing is partially a joke, tho it did help me in my particular situations .. proper falling technique does not guarantee you not to hit your head, or hurt other areas ... in my last fall i dislocated my shoulder and bruised my rotator cuff .... On this matter I dont feel anyone should be trying to sway anyone either way . its all up to personal preference.
I didn't think you were trying to persuade anyone - that was from someone else.

There are no guarantees no matter what. But it's a good question, which way gives you the best chances, or the least risk to put it another way. Would we really be helping anyone if we recommend wearing a helmet, if training would make them significantly safer? Or is the risk so slight that specialized training is unnecessary for just cycling? If so, then would we be doing a disservice by advising training, because it would make cycling appear more dangerous than it really is? Could the same thing be said for helmets?

Personally I'd advise that training on general principle, useful skills regardless. But I don't see how anyone could advise anything in with respect to bicycling helmets without at least general answers to those questions.
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Old 04-14-15, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Would we really be helping anyone if we recommend wearing a helmet, if training would make them significantly safer? Or is the risk so slight that specialized training is unnecessary for just cycling? If so, then would we be doing a disservice by advising training, because it would make cycling appear more dangerous than it really is? Could the same thing be said for helmets?
Although there is no research to back up the claim that specialized training does anything for cyclists, anecdotal references confirm that there is benefit for those who need that kind of structured training to feel... if not outright comfortable, at least competent to mix it up with vehicular traffic on the road. In between going it alone, or hooking up with a local sportif club ride, riding classes are a great intro to riding streets with confidence.

If wearing a helmet is part of that -- whether the confidence is justified or not, regarding helmets -- then by all means, I'm for helmets.
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Old 04-14-15, 03:06 PM
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i say every little bit helps ... i didnt take martial arts in anticipation of 1 day falling off my bike , its just something i did at the time that helped me later .... with that said any skills we can learn in general in life may help us .. like mconionx said its all about what makes you feel confident enough to ride... can people benefit in general from knowing how to fall "properly" yes, do people need to have specialized training to ride, not necessarily, unless they have never ridden before at all ..... a helmet wouldn't have saved my shoulder, but maybe next time (knock on wood theres not a next time) that training might not save my head again ....... damn i feel like im jinxing my self with these posts ..... maybe i should get a helmet
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Old 04-14-15, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MMACH 5
And the helmet thread awakens from its late winter's nap.

I'll have your coffee ready, when you get out of the shower.
Maybe Rip Van Helmet woke up from his 40 winks; expect to see some tirades about b-crats shortly.
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Old 04-15-15, 10:09 AM
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mmach

I have it on good authority that people that dont wear helmets, dont shower either.
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Old 04-15-15, 10:34 AM
  #1174  
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this is pretty funny. I had my daughter drive me partway to work, and then I ride the rest of the way. I was wearing my helmet, and she made some sort of snarky comment about how I didn't need to wear it in the car. I informed her that head injuries in cars are far more common that cycling head injuries, and that head injuries while showering are even more numerous. So she should learn to wash her hair with a helmet on. I think this whole convo made it onto snapchat.
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Old 04-15-15, 01:16 PM
  #1175  
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Hi!
What's this thread about?
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