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Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
There is also an issue addressed, and it is about the risk of rotational injury - not about "whether there's a positive overall benefit" as you suggested.
In this thread, the issue is whether there's a positive overall benefit.
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
You seem to want to dive into a criticism of the article.
The only thing we can say from that article is that helmets aren't perfect.
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
It is a better analogy than seat belts because air bags are known to be harmful in some common situations.
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
There is strong evidence that cycling helmets can be harmful, or at least of little safety utility, under some conditions.
The particular referenced article appears to conclude that helmets help in the "majority" of "typical linear impacts" while not causing an increase in rotational injuries except in low speed collisions where the increase is "marginal". I doubt it's saying people shouldn't wear helmets. Overall, it was concluded that for the majority of cases considered, the helmet can provide life saving protection during typical linear impacts and, in addition, the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head. However, in both low speed linear impacts and the most severe oblique cases, linear and rotational accelerations may increase to levels corresponding to injury severities as high as AIS 2 or 3, at which a marginal increase (up to 1 AIS interval) in injury outcome may be expected for a helmeted head.
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
No one said it was "all" of them - yet as I pointed out, some information suggests that most concussions are due to rotational forces.
The particular article appears to say "no contribution in high speed collisions and a marginal contribution in low speed collisions offset by life saving protection high speed collisions". |
Originally Posted by BikingZombie
(Post 18165939)
To charge at all seems underhanded. Kind of like a mechanic already having a car on a lift and pointing out work that needs to happen to someone they know will just pay. You should just give the helmet for free (included in the rental), but charge for replacement if they don't bring it back.
Nice rundown of different shares. Great info! Twin Cities here (St Paul & Minneapolis), so Nice Ride is our local implementation of a bike share program, and it has been very successful. How successful? So successful that the national park (Mississippi National River and Recreation Area - MNRRA) and its non-profit volunteer wing Mississippi River Fund, soon to be renamed as Mississippi Park Connection (I think that's it) is in the final stages of starting a canoe rental/sharing program. You'd be able to rent a canoe, get out at a location, check your canoe in and then transfer to a Nice Ride bike to carry on. How cool is that?!?! Nice Ride does not require helmet usage, but does suggest it |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18226970)
People have been killed/injured by seatbelts/airbags would you take them out of your car? - the issue is whether helmets increase the risk of rotational injury in some situations, so that's a poor comparison. Better is, would you put small children in front of airbags?
As for practicing falling, I wouldn't any more, maybe 30 years ago I would have considered it. - just age should not prevent someone from learning falls in a dojo. My question is, those who have trained and know how, what differences in technique did they find? |
Originally Posted by 350htrr
(Post 18227975)
I guess my real question should have been "even tho a helmet can provide life saving protection overall, the decision not to wear one because of a non perfect score seems not logical to me, and that alone is not sufficient reason to forgo all the other benefits of wearing a helmet" No?
This concern is based almost entirely on the concussion portion of traumatic brain injury. You can stipulate that helmets can save you of most of the abrasion injuries, and contusions and other effects of less severe impacts, and I doubt that you'd get much argument over that. It's reasonable to decide to wear a helmet on the strength of that alone, and also reasonable to decide that preventing those injuries alone is insufficient reason to justify wearing one. But concussions are serious concerns, and it's pretty startling to learn but solid that the most likely cause of concussion is rotational force, not linear impact. It's also pretty startling that helmets provide little or no defense against those rotational forces (although more recent helmets improve on this), and possibly, no protection against a large range of the larger linear forces that are required in order to cause a concussion. So there IS a range, maybe, where the maximum impact that the helmet can absorb and the minimum possible impact that can cause a concussion overlaps and hence the helmet might save a concussion. Even that is disputed, and if true is a narrow range. So that line of thought basically has it that cycling helmets offer no protection, or at best little protection, against concussions. But they might increase the chances of a rotational injury. And that seems to be the main reason people say it's worthless to wear one, and may even be worse for you if you do wear one... |
Originally Posted by njkayaker
(Post 18227575)
http://www.bikeforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by wphamilton http://www.bikeforums.net/images/but...post-right.png It is a better analogy than seat belts because air bags are known to be harmful in some common situations. No, it fails because it's a misuse of the device (just like an adult helmet on a child).. If you have to put a child in the front seat having an airbag, please take additional cautions. Even with additional precautions there is an increased risk to the child, no matter how "correctly" you use it. Speaking of "correct" use of safety equipment, back to the helmet. Furthering the analogy, "misuse" of the helmet in my opinion would be allowing it to unnecessarily contact the ground. So I'll refresh my question, to anyone who has relevant experience or specific knowledge: if you've had formal training in rolls and break-falls, have you found the helmet to be an impediment in the technique? |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
Have YOU trained with falls and rolls, in martial arts or gymnastic tumbling?
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18227447)
Have you tried it with a bike helmet on?
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18228075)
Not "misuse" - you should not put a child in range of an air bag period. If you have any choice. That's the law, and the law is based on sound medical knowledge and case studies.
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
(Post 18228148)
Years ago.
Bicycle falls aren't very much like those things. |
I wear my helmet because I like my noggin and would like to avoid a concussion if possible. I realize it may not save my noggin in worse case scenario, but for me why not wear it. It's purple and it's cute dangit! I don't think they should be forced on anyone that decides not to wear them though. |
[QUOTE=rydabent;18218299isnt some protection better than no protection? Since wearing a helmet is really no burden at all, why not wear one?[/QUOTE]
Still waiting for our friend to explain why you don't wear helmet during other activities since it's "no burden at all". :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18228215)
Why do you say that? I've used those things in slip and falls, high speed motorcycle accidents - and bicycle falls. As far as I can tell bicycle falls are exactly like those things. Even a low-side, if you're quick enough.
Martial art/gymnastic falls are routine. Bicycle falls are not. If you are going to spend time practicing bicycle safety, it would likely be vastly less risky and more beneficial to practice avoiding falls. |
Originally Posted by vol
(Post 18229001)
Still waiting for our friend to explain why you don't wear helmet during other activities since it's "no burden at all". :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 18229722)
My new Colorado pickup has probably $2000 of added safety equiptment including about 8 air bags.
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Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 18229722)
My new Colorado pickup has probably $2000 of added safety equiptment including about 8 air bags.
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As mentioned before people don't wear helmets for most things because they do other things to reduce the risk... Like walking on the sidewalk not the road, crossing at a crosswalk not the middle of the road... Like holding onto a banister while walking down/up steps... Like having handholds in showers... Like having airbags/seatbelts in vehicles, like almost everything in life most people do, do things to reduce whatever the risk may be... Oh, Like having mad cycling skills and never crashing... :p
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
(Post 18229856)
As mentioned before people don't wear helmets for most things because they do other things to reduce the risk...
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
(Post 18229460)
A slow speed low-side fall might be similar (I was going to mention that).
Martial art/gymnastic falls are routine. Bicycle falls are not. If you are going to spend time practicing bicycle safety, it would likely be vastly less risky and more beneficial to practice avoiding falls. Avoiding falls is your first line of defense. That's not always possible, and when it does happen we are vastly better off knowing how. I sometimes get the sense that people who are dismissive of those skills don't really understand what I'm talking about, or they just don't believe that it's possible. Wearing a helmet is the last line of defense, when your training cannot prevent a head impact. |
Originally Posted by 350htrr
(Post 18229856)
As mentioned before people don't wear helmets for most things because they do other things to reduce the risk... Like walking on the sidewalk not the road, crossing at a crosswalk not the middle of the road... Like holding onto a banister while walking down/up steps... Like having handholds in showers... Like having airbags/seatbelts in vehicles, like almost everything in life most people do, do things to reduce whatever the risk may be... Oh, Like having mad cycling skills and never crashing... :p
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Originally Posted by vol
(Post 18230061)
Sounds like you don't "do other things to reduce the risk" while cycling. .
Even with seat belts and air bags, the chances of a head injury during a car accident are comparable to the chances of head injury in a bike crash. About three times less, but still that's comparable. ER stats that I've seen, the most common cause of head injury is the simple slip and fall. The majority of those falls happened to someone walking on a sidewalk, but those injured are seldom wearing a helmet. Perceived risk for different activities don't seem to follow reality. |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18230158)
ER stats that I've seen, the most common cause of head injury is the simple slip and fall. The majority of those falls happened to someone walking on a sidewalk, but those injured are seldom wearing a helmet. Perceived risk for different activities don't seem to follow reality.
Advice from people who know what they are talking about to prevent TBI in older adults from falls:
Advice for people at risk of falls on sidewalks?
You know who recommends helmets for grandma and grandpa? Anti-helmet zealots and ? -mr. bill |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 18230158)
I don't get that from his posts
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
(Post 18230182)
You know who recommends helmets for grandma and grandpa?
Anti-helmet zealots and ? -mr. bill |
You know who recommends helmets for automobile drivers and passengers?
Anti-helmet zealots and ? -mr. bill |
You know who recommends helmets for showers?
Anti-helmet zealots and ? -mr. bill |
You know who recommends walking helmets?
Anti-helmet zealots and ? -mr. bill |
You know who recommends couch helmets?
Anti-helmet zealots and ? -mr. bill |
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