randya

There are two Critical Mass mottos that apply here:

1. Ride daily, Celebrate monthly

2. We're not blocking traffic, we are traffic

randya

The truth is that a 'courteous mass' is more dangerous to the participants, who have to mix it up with cars, and also causes a lot more traffic disruption than a corked ride, which stays together and clears any given area a lot faster...

flyingCoyote

What kind of communist hellhole are you thinking of where simply having a demonstration requires a government permit?! We live in a constitutional republic; the police and the mayor have no authority to interfere with the right of the people peacably to assemble etc...familiar?

Municipalities may have requirements for large demonstrations for public safety reasons, but critical mass as normally conducted poses no threat, as the police and city administrations (two) demonstrated to my and the judge's satisfaction over the past almost decade that they happily facilitated the rides.


I'll let the funeral directors know about these new rules immediately, but when the police came around the the CM the other night they agreed with doing the ride our way, not yours.



We pay them quite well, actually. It's called taxes and consumes over a third of my paycheck.

supcom

Um, I'm afraid that the communist hellhole is the United States. You see, your right to demonstrate, like many rights, is not absolute (Yelling FIRE! in a theater is the classic example of a free speech restriction). A city does have the right to impose reasonable permit requirements on demonstrations so long as they are content neutral. The police department does have the authority (duty) to enforce those laws. This helps to protect everyone's rights. People who are not demonstrating have rights too.

Critical Mass has created a question relating to those laws in whether they apply to a non-organized (or very loosley organized) group with no common purpose other than to ride bicycles through city streets. Since cycling is an otherwise legal activity when traffic laws are followed, it is not obvious that CM would require a permit. This, as far as I can tell, is still being litigated in New York courts and no definitive ruling has yet to be issued.

larue

Well supcom answered that for me.

Most cities guidelines for permits look very similar to this:
Demonstration shall mean a rally, picketing, speechmaking, marching, vigil, religious services or any other similar gathering or parade that primarily involves the communication or expression of views or grievances, engaged in by more than one (1) person, that occurs on a street or highway, including sidewalks, or on a publicly owned outdoor mall or plaza, or on other property owned or leased by the city, which demonstration does not comply with traffic laws and controls or which may, in the judgment of the Coordinator or the service area director responsible for the administration of any city affairs on the property, obstruct, delay or interfere with the normal activities, operations or flow of pedestrian or vehicular traffic on the property or which may create a significant risk of injury to the public or participants in the demonstration or other persons.

CM is supposed to be unorganized, the idea of people who just happen to be riding at the same time. This is not the case when you have people dictating routes, times, etc and this is not the case when you start referring to it as a demonstration. CM is flawed in many ways and in my opinion in it's current state it definitely falls into the above definition of a permit needed "demonstration."

Before you start shout "communism" or whatever other catch phrase you've heard thrown out but don't actually understand, try doing some research into the law.

biodiesel

ahh good points,
but then i don't nessecarily agree that a protest should be legal or must be to be effective.

if fact some must be otherwise.

i'm only wondering if it isn't time for a new evoloution in cycle advocacy rides.

the point about parades and red lights is a good one.
combine that thought with this... city's will close a route to traffic (cones etc) for a parade, a car race, a street painting festival or a 5k.
Denver closed sections of street (and i mean Closed...) every other week.

So far i've yet to ride a cycle anything in the city with closed roads.
Moonlight Madness has like 6-8,000 people every year, at midnight, and the roads stay open.

Perhaps a good step would be using that argument to have a closed street festival.
Then pushing for closed roads etc.

I'd prefer staying comfortably underground, but changing the approach and focusing more on the message.

An example, of the non riders i know i've only heard negative re: CM's.
The same people wanted to participate in ride to work day.

If we have their attention we can change attitudes.

What about doing a 'group commute'
Once a week/ month whatever, a group meets downtown after work-ish and does a tour of the city that takes people (via the average commuter routes) near their homes. Travel as a pack, obeying signals, and wearing slogan jerseys etc.
Similar to a commuter buddy program, but in masse.
(harder for the cops to get you for a protest if your riding home from work)

again, just hashing out ideas

vincenzosi

The group commute idea sounds like a good one. Here's another interesting thought for those that don't live in New York City...

Just about every Sunday from the beginning of Spring through the end of Fall, you can see a cavalcade of Motorcycles riding up the West Side Highway. Usually they do so about 50-100 at a time. They take up all lanes of traffic, and, since most of the people riding in the ride are Nassau County Motorcycle Police (I have a brother in law familiar with the rides) they seal streets off as they head up town so they don't have to stop until the whole group passes.

Now please explain to me why that's legal and Critical Mass riders get their bikes taken away.

vincenzosi

Larue,

You know I love ya man, but you're so wrong on this it makes my eyebrows ache.

It's not about the law. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. The law has already spoken in the form of two separate rulings allowing CM to go on, forbidding police from confiscating legitimately chained up bikes, anad affirming the right of riders to ride in a group on any street in New York City.

Instead, what has happened is the police are enforcing some law that the courts have already said doesn't apply to CM.

Everyone seems so worried about the law, and all the anti-CM folks (not necessarily you, I know that) are ranting about the law.

Well, the law is on our side.

flyingCoyote

Exactly what I just said, albeit with slightly different emphasis. What I was responding to is Larue's contention that ALL demonstrations need permits, a not uncommon fallacy.



You haven't said anything that contradicts my statements, but you're doing it in an annoyed, pedantic tone suited to either a grade school teacher or somebody who just got this information from one. I can only assume that you're replying to someone else's argument as if I'd made it.

flyingCoyote

No, he didn't. You asserted that any activity that could be called a demonstration automatically requires a permit; this is false. He said exactly what I did: that a locality may impose requirements for the public safety.



Again, exactly what I said.

The courts have repeatedly found in CM's favor, the police apparently agree (as they obviously did for almost a decade before), and we're having our rides. Why does this bother you so much? You appear to be about the only one at this point who has a problem with it.


Ahh, so now CM's routes are dictated? News to me!

This shows some of the reason for your misunderstanding though - CM can't request a permit because the route is in fact NOT predetermined.



If you're a judge or NYPD official that opinion has meaning. Oh. Never mind, then



Do you know that your grammar really goes down the tubes when you get all worked up like that? Have you read all the applicable legal decisions on this? You can grab 'em off the times up website and maybe after reading them you'll stop making fallicious statements from a thousand miles away.

I have to ask you - have you EVER been to one of our rides?

flyingCoyote

We're all here because we love bicycling, aren't we? How and whether to promote/preserve/improve it may be open to debate, but that doesn't justify the snotty tone of my two previous posts...the product of a serious caffeine deficiency.

I'm better now, you can take off the chains :-p

larue

To the non-cyclists the only image they have of us is the one we give them. And I prefer pushing the image that we have a right to the road and there is nothing to fear from us rather than we have a right to the road so we'll do whatever we want on it.
CM was supposed to be a bike ride. A sort of "I ride bikes, you ride bikes, let's ride bikes together" bike ride. Now it's a Bikes Against Bush bike ride, a Save The Enviroment Bike ride, and a bunch of other bike rides. The fact that there is no organization is the reason CM was able to be taken over by anyone with an agenda. A few bad apples can ruin it for everyone, and a few bad apples have.

Yes flyingCoyote, I have been to CM. In fact I'm a major part of our local CM. And I've witnessed that when we asked people to try obeying the law (using lights at night, single file, stop lights, etc) people stopped showing up because it wasn't fun if they weren't being crazy and screaming at cars and whatnot.

No vincenzosi I am not anti-CM, I am against what CM has become.

Is it possible to save the image of CM? Sure. Do I think it's better to start over? Indeed I do. And that is what this thread was originally about, discussing the ways we can have group rides that are more effective than CM. I've given my opinion, if you don't agree with it then I could really care less. I'm going to do everything I can myself to increase the image of cyclists.

Oh and my town is working on marketing a Bike To Work Week for our county, it's still being worked out but it's off to a great start.

vincenzosi

Put the claws away man, I never said you were. In fact, I went out of my way to say not you.

larue

Sorry I didn't think that sounded like an attack at all, I was just stating my current view.
Sorry again, no claws here.

vincenzosi

I will say one thing for sure... The conduct of the police at the NYC CM's is doing nothing to foster an obligation of civility in its participants.

Jym Dyer

=v= Actually, let's have a little bit of perspective here. Critical Mass has been going on for over 12 years and has spread to over 400 locations:

https://www.critical-mass.org/

That's thousands and thousands of rides, rolling along happily with no problem. Every now and then something bad happens, and that bad thing looms larger in some people's minds than the thousands of good rides. I disagree with the premise of this thread, that we're "inspiring people less than [we] annoy." In NYC the recent crackdown has brought all kinds of people and communities out of the woodwork and together in support of CM. That's inspiration at work right there.

Also, I'm sorry to say that the complaints aired here thus far about CM are pretty much the same stuff I heard 12 years ago, when we were starting the whole thing. They didn't seem to prevent the movement from blossoming worldwide, so I guess I can't see what makes them all of a sudden so durned imperative to usurp the movement.

There have been attempts to make "a better CM" along these lines before -- D.C.'s "Solidarity Rides" and Austin's "Courteous Mass" -- but they have not thrived. CM has. CM is a living thing, subject to growth and change, but I don't see this sort of discourse heading in that direction.

Instead of pointing fingers at CM, why not take a peek at the legal briefs being filed by the City of New York as part of this latest attack?

https://www.times-up.org/legal_newswire.php

You'll see that the legal pretexts really have little to do with what's being discussed in this thread thus far. The City is basically making an attempt to override our First Amendment rights to free assembly and free speech, and exert even greater control over what we can do in public space. This is serious stuff that goes way beyond CM itself, or whether somebody, somewhere, is running a red light or has an anti-Bush "bumper sticker" on their bike.

Niten

I have seen this sign borne by riders in the local excuse for a CM.

OTOH...If one is breaking traffic laws, one is not traffic.

brokenrobot

Around here, the primary indicator for being traffic (if you can judge by average driving behavior) is total disregard for traffic law.

As You Like It

This is largely the attitude I take. I have yet to make it to a Critical Mass here in KCMO. Every Last Friday, without a fail, I have some other commitment. Family visiting, business meeting, classes, or something. I can ride daily, but I can't necessarily ride for a special occasion. I like to hope that my to-the-letter-of-the-law daily commute and runabout activities are a start. People do notice cyclists, though not nearly so much as we'd like, safety-wise.

I live in a pretty big city, and when we moved into our house, our one next-door neighbor approached me one day when I was leaving for work and told me that he recognised me, that he'd seen me everyday when he was working on the Commerce Tower renovation. That renovation had taken place almost two years previously, so I have no doubt that the unusual occurrence of a daily cyclist in the business district is something that people do take note of. Some of my co-workers are actually thinking of taking up bike commuting, too, simply because it is cheaper than parking downtown, and I spend so much time grinning and talking it up. I look forward to going home in the evenings, just as much as anyone else does, but I have the added bonus of a fun bike ride, rather than a frustrating traffic-sit.

HAUS!

Agreed. I spent about 4 months commuting by bike 15 miles each way to a temprory job where the owner drove a giant Excursion about 5 miles each way to work everyday. I rode through all weather, as it got dark out (with lights) through cold, and even when it was nice.

I never gave the owner a hard time about his completely overkill commuting vehicle (IMO) because I didn't think it would go over very well. I was completely caught by suprise when I got an email from the owner telling me I had inspired him to get a road bike and to start commuting by bike instead of driving the beast. I was thrilled! I also wonder how many other people I never talked to... but whom may have seen me.... might have thought about riding more.

I think CM is great. I don't agree with some of the anarchistic approaches but I do think that if you can educate drivers by approaching and talking while corking them or handing out flyers, etc.. then the encounter is better for all. I think if a local CM gets to the point of calling attention to itself and discussion about whether it is good or not means that it probably has many more people riding (...to get big enough to warrant the discussions) So on some level that means it is effective at getting people out on bikes and getting them in touch with each other to help make a difference. So far, our CM has been very peaceful and has gotten support from the city officials because many of the participants have gotten involved in local traffic and parking decisions, helped get bike lanes, city bus bike racks, and in general have tried to make out city more bike friendly. We even got our mayer to ride his bike to work on occasion. I think inspiration is much more effective than confrontation and if CM can find better ways to Inspire people to ride, that is the path to follow. Celebrate Monthly!

P.S. Has anyone seen the First Amendment Project on Sundance channel? (Maybe available to rent)

A series of 6? short films (30 minutes each) that each take a specific event or person and look at the first amendment as it applies. One was specifically about the Republican National Convention protests in NY which seems to be when the New York CM started to become under attack. It looks at the legality of peoples right to "peacable assemble". There is also the film travelling with the Bicycle Film Festival called "Still We Ride" which is about the CM arrests from that same weekend. I have yet to see Still We Ride, but have heard it's very good as well.