I have a hard time looking over my shoulder
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have a hard time looking over my shoulder
I mean, I do it...I always try to check over my shoulder whe I move laterally...my problem is that, when I'm on the bike, I have a hard time interpreting what I see. When I drive, I can look in the mirrors or check my blind spots and understand immediately what I see. On the bike, 90% of the time, what I see whe I look over my shoulder is a blur. Any suggestions on how to see better when I look OTS?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,511
Bikes: Surly Pacer/Cutter/Viking
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have the same problem myself, especially at night when I can't distinguish the cars headlamps for my wife headlight.
I've been thinking about getting a mirror, but can't overcome the total dork feeling.
I've been thinking about getting a mirror, but can't overcome the total dork feeling.
#3
You need a new bike
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
A helmet or glasses mounted mirror works very well for seeing behind you. There is at least one manufacturer of a very tiny mirror designed to stick onto the inside corner of your sunglasses. I've never used one of these, but if it works would be quite stealthy in the dork department.
#4
Tom (ex)Builder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 2,814
Bikes: Specialized Allez
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Helmet mirror. I'd rather be a safe and dorky than dead and cool.
__________________
Tom
"It hurts so good..."
Tom
"It hurts so good..."
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Land of Oversized Mice and Anteaters
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Push your chin down into your shoulder when you look back. It makes it easier to look without swerving. Make sure you take a good look forward to take stock of any obstacles before you do so, and then you can look over a little longer, possibly.
#6
Conservative Hippie
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wakulla Co. FL
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I pretty much do what Hawkear does for looking back. I also have a big honkin' bar end mounted mirror, but I'm at an age where I have the luxury of not caring about the dork status.
One thing I've found out is cagers don't see you looking in the mirror. However, looking back over your should seems to say, "HEY, watch now, I might be moving over."
One thing I've found out is cagers don't see you looking in the mirror. However, looking back over your should seems to say, "HEY, watch now, I might be moving over."
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
what I find that helps is if you put one hand on your hip when looking behind it gives you much more balance and you can look behind for a bit longer, which may help you.
#8
On Sabbatical
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by supcom
A helmet or glasses mounted mirror works very well for seeing behind you. There is at least one manufacturer of a very tiny mirror designed to stick onto the inside corner of your sunglasses. I've never used one of these, but if it works would be quite stealthy in the dork department.
No one even knows I have a mirror on these and they do not interfere when you are wearing the glasses sans bike.
#9
Ride the Road
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,059
Bikes: Surly Cross-Check; hard tail MTB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
3 Posts
I got a helmet mirror a month or so ago and love it. As to looking back, practice in a parking lot or on a little-used road or bike path. Try to practice near a pavement line, so you can test your ability to ride in a straight line while looking back. Good luck.
#10
Feral Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Roma, Italia
Posts: 2,667
Bikes: yes, I have one.
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Mirrors can be useful, but it's still a good idea to tackle the real problem - that of control.
Get some chalk.
Go find a big empty parking lot or similar.
Draw two parallel lines
Ride along it while trying to look clearly behind you, and stay within the lines.
Practice, practice, practice.
I know it seems like an awful waste of time, but it'll help not just with looking behind you, but also to enhance your sense of control.
We did that when I was a child during cycling lessons. If it worked then, it should work fine for you.
Have a few cold beers at hand to reward yourself after such a tedious exercise. Enjoy.
Get some chalk.
Go find a big empty parking lot or similar.
Draw two parallel lines
Ride along it while trying to look clearly behind you, and stay within the lines.
Practice, practice, practice.
I know it seems like an awful waste of time, but it'll help not just with looking behind you, but also to enhance your sense of control.
We did that when I was a child during cycling lessons. If it worked then, it should work fine for you.
Have a few cold beers at hand to reward yourself after such a tedious exercise. Enjoy.
#12
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Been riding my road bike lately, which does not have a mirror... and I have to agree that the act of turning and looking back felt ackward at first... After practicing it for a bit, I it is now quite comfortable and indeed does tend to signal that "I am looking to move."
I find that shifting my hand to the upper part of the drop bars, just inside the brake handles offers me the best control... you have to practice a bit to ensure that you don't swerve. But the whole action is a lot like simply twisting at the waist.
You do have to be firmly in the saddle... and the right side of your body rather "locks" the bike into the direction you were going.
Of course, before actually doing this, make sure there are no obstructions on the road ahead... very important!
At night it is tough... but so is using a mirror.
On my commuter I have a Mirrycle handle bar mirror, and it offers a pretty good view. I never have liked the helmet or glasses mirrors... but that is my choice.
I find that shifting my hand to the upper part of the drop bars, just inside the brake handles offers me the best control... you have to practice a bit to ensure that you don't swerve. But the whole action is a lot like simply twisting at the waist.
You do have to be firmly in the saddle... and the right side of your body rather "locks" the bike into the direction you were going.
Of course, before actually doing this, make sure there are no obstructions on the road ahead... very important!
At night it is tough... but so is using a mirror.
On my commuter I have a Mirrycle handle bar mirror, and it offers a pretty good view. I never have liked the helmet or glasses mirrors... but that is my choice.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,068
Bikes: 2013 KHS Flite 747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Laika
I mean, I do it...I always try to check over my shoulder whe I move laterally...my problem is that, when I'm on the bike, I have a hard time interpreting what I see. When I drive, I can look in the mirrors or check my blind spots and understand immediately what I see. On the bike, 90% of the time, what I see whe I look over my shoulder is a blur. Any suggestions on how to see better when I look OTS?
Remember when you were learning to ride a bike? You probably had a hard time at first.
Suggestions?
Take a good, long look. If the look over your shoulder is too brief, is it because you are swerving?
If you are swerving, try sitting up before you look over your shoulder.
If you look over your left shoulder, take your left hand off the bars so you can turn your whole torso insteard of just your head. Some say that pointing behind you with your left hand helps minimize the swerve, but that's the same thing.
Have patience - you can do it!
#14
Punk Rock Lives
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Throughout the west in a van, on my bike, and in the forest
Posts: 3,305
Bikes: Long Haul Trucker with BRIFTERS!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times
in
39 Posts
Originally Posted by Laika
I mean, I do it...I always try to check over my shoulder whe I move laterally...my problem is that, when I'm on the bike, I have a hard time interpreting what I see. When I drive, I can look in the mirrors or check my blind spots and understand immediately what I see. On the bike, 90% of the time, what I see whe I look over my shoulder is a blur. Any suggestions on how to see better when I look OTS?
I have a complete view of the road and (almost) total understanding with my rear view mirror; i rarely look back unless I want to move left into a lane, and I wouldn't do that unless a car was far enough back i could monitor them in my rear view mirror anyway.
roughstuff
#15
Ride the Road
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,059
Bikes: Surly Cross-Check; hard tail MTB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
3 Posts
I think we missed a step in the looking-back process. Roughstuff is right to point out the problem that you can't look forward when looking back. The solution is to make sure you carefully scan the road ahead before looking back. (This is a point that Hurst repeatedly makes in The Art of Urban Cycling.)
Mirrors can eliminate the need to look back just to see what's approaching. But I think it's good to look back before lane position because it signals drivers that you are thinking about moving.
I practice the look back when I am on the path or the road by myself. I just position my ride over the dotted line and do it over and over and over again. You'd think it would be easy, but it's hard to look back without swerving. Good luck.
Mirrors can eliminate the need to look back just to see what's approaching. But I think it's good to look back before lane position because it signals drivers that you are thinking about moving.
I practice the look back when I am on the path or the road by myself. I just position my ride over the dotted line and do it over and over and over again. You'd think it would be easy, but it's hard to look back without swerving. Good luck.
#16
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
...and I have to agree that the act of turning and looking back felt ackward at first... After practicing it for a bit, I it is now quite comfortable and indeed does tend to signal that "I am looking to move."
Vehicular cycling gives the cyclist a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional "keep to the right/BL" cycling. Messenger-style cycling achieves this as well, perhaps even to a greater degree, but with compromises in safety and legal status that I find unacceptable.
Originally Posted by Daily Commute
The solution is to make sure you carefully scan the road ahead before looking back.
Sadly, in the typical Forester style, after urging you to learn to look back, he refers to those who have not yet learned as idiots, thus implying that you (who presumably also had to learn to look back) too are an idiot: "So once you have learned, watch out for the idiots who haven't".
Mirrors can eliminate the need to look back just to see what's approaching. But I think it's good to look back before lane position because it signals drivers that you are thinking about moving.
Serge
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
A mirror check should never substitute for an actual shoulder check look back.
As for the benefits of being seen as you turn your head, I agree, and yet have to say the head turn is the least noticable thing I do in traffic to communicate my intentions. I''ve largely abandoned traditional hand/arm signals in favor of big, broad, unambiguous hand/arm signals, namely a noticable wave to the motorist and then an emphatic pointing motion at the space I'm going to occupy once I move. I've gotten good results in Brooklyn & downtown Manhattan this way...most cars will back off a little, even.
Thanks again for all the advice, folks.
#18
Warning:Mild Peril
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle Refugee in Los Angeles
Posts: 3,170
Bikes: Cilo, Surly Pacer, Kona Fire Mountain w/Bob Trailer, Scattante
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Congratulations, Gene, this is an important skill that's absolutely required to be able to cycle vehicularly. The power of the communication effect of a good look back over the shoulder is very cool to experience, isn't it?
Vehicular cycling gives the cyclist a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional "keep to the right/BL" cycling. Messenger-style cycling achieves this as well, perhaps even to a greater degree, but with compromises in safety and legal status that I find unacceptable.
Serge
Vehicular cycling gives the cyclist a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional "keep to the right/BL" cycling. Messenger-style cycling achieves this as well, perhaps even to a greater degree, but with compromises in safety and legal status that I find unacceptable.
Serge
And not to hijack this thread, but how would you define messenger-style cycling, and what portions would you define as unsafe and illegal?
__________________
Non semper erit aestas.
Non semper erit aestas.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Land of Oversized Mice and Anteaters
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
And not to hijack this thread, but how would you define messenger-style cycling, and what portions would you define as unsafe and illegal?
#20
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Maybe "messenger-style cycling" was not the best choice of words. What I was picturing was the style depicted in this video:
https://www.digave.com/videos/red-web.mpg
I can't speak for the style advocated by Hurst in The Art, for I have yet to read it. I certainly was not talking about bicyclesafe.com, which is very close to VC, and does not advocate anythingthat I would consider to be unacceptable compromises in safety and legal status.
https://www.digave.com/videos/red-web.mpg
I can't speak for the style advocated by Hurst in The Art, for I have yet to read it. I certainly was not talking about bicyclesafe.com, which is very close to VC, and does not advocate anythingthat I would consider to be unacceptable compromises in safety and legal status.
#21
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Further, I don't think the bicyclesafe.com style qualifies as giving "the cyclist a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional 'keep to the right/BL' cycling", not the way VC does.
#22
cab horn
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,353
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 25 Times
in
18 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Maybe "messenger-style cycling" was not the best choice of words. What I was picturing was the style depicted in this video:
https://www.digave.com/videos/red-web.mpg
I can't speak for the style advocated by Hurst in The Art, for I have yet to read it. I certainly was not talking about bicyclesafe.com, which is very close to VC, and does not advocate anythingthat I would consider to be unacceptable compromises in safety and legal status.
https://www.digave.com/videos/red-web.mpg
I can't speak for the style advocated by Hurst in The Art, for I have yet to read it. I certainly was not talking about bicyclesafe.com, which is very close to VC, and does not advocate anythingthat I would consider to be unacceptable compromises in safety and legal status.
That video is simply amazing. Of course all you VC do-gooders will splash the hate on it. No one in their right mind would watch it and go. HEY LOOK, THATS HOW WE SHOULD BIKE EVERYDAY!
#23
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Of course all you VC do-gooders will splash the hate on it. No one in their right mind would watch it and go. HEY LOOK, THATS HOW WE SHOULD BIKE EVERYDAY!
All I said what that the type of cycling depicted in that video, like VC, is consistent with having "a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional 'keep to the right/BL' cycling."
But the difference is that VC can give you the same sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic depicted in the film, without the unacceptable compromises in safety and legal status.
#24
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Congratulations, Gene, this is an important skill that's absolutely required to be able to cycle vehicularly. The power of the communication effect of a good look back over the shoulder is very cool to experience, isn't it?
Vehicular cycling gives the cyclist a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional "keep to the right/BL" cycling. Messenger-style cycling achieves this as well, perhaps even to a greater degree, but with compromises in safety and legal status that I find unacceptable.
Vehicular cycling gives the cyclist a sense of control, freedom and satisfaction in traffic that is simply not possible with traditional "keep to the right/BL" cycling. Messenger-style cycling achieves this as well, perhaps even to a greater degree, but with compromises in safety and legal status that I find unacceptable.
Since my flat bar bike needs some work, I am back to the drop bars (clean bike, with no racks, mirrors or anything) and initially I really missed that mirror... I laughed at how many times I looked for it. (hey, there's nothing there... )
It took a few days to re-aquire the right move to twist my upper body to give a good look back.
Yes indeed, the drivers do notice, and actually I had one lady almost come to a complete stop while I was just checking the traffic... she was ready to let me in right then and there.
Now in reality I will not ride that drop bar bike in regular commuting... my position is too far down and tucked (it is still a blast to ride though...) and it is somewhat difficult to really keep track of heavy traffic. The "full body look back" depends on a good forward look first... and in heavy traffic, one does not have the guarantee that the forward traffic situation will remain static for that long.
I find that the flat bar bike with the mirror gives me a far better look at traffic, in heavy traffic. But from this I have learned (or relearned) that I have to make really big gestures for the motorists. That darn arm signal is just not enough...
So when I get my commuting "truck" back on the road, I will try to remember to do more than just a "motorists' glance back."
#25
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Laika
This is true for any vehicle IMO. I learned to drive in a car that had no side mirrors and as a result I ALWAYS turned my head to look, even in other cars. It's this practice that I'm trying to carryover into cycling, and I've mastered the mechanics of turning to look...my problem, really, is in assessing the information gained by the look back. Aside from the enthusiastic mirror advocacy, the most useful thing I've seen here so far from all the kind and thoughtful suggestions has been to increase the length of time I spend looking. I'm going to try to work on that.
As for the benefits of being seen as you turn your head, I agree, and yet have to say the head turn is the least noticable thing I do in traffic to communicate my intentions. I''ve largely abandoned traditional hand/arm signals in favor of big, broad, unambiguous hand/arm signals, namely a noticable wave to the motorist and then an emphatic pointing motion at the space I'm going to occupy once I move. I've gotten good results in Brooklyn & downtown Manhattan this way...most cars will back off a little, even.
Thanks again for all the advice, folks.
As for the benefits of being seen as you turn your head, I agree, and yet have to say the head turn is the least noticable thing I do in traffic to communicate my intentions. I''ve largely abandoned traditional hand/arm signals in favor of big, broad, unambiguous hand/arm signals, namely a noticable wave to the motorist and then an emphatic pointing motion at the space I'm going to occupy once I move. I've gotten good results in Brooklyn & downtown Manhattan this way...most cars will back off a little, even.
Thanks again for all the advice, folks.
The head look back does not communicate nearly as well as a full body look back... I too always look back... after thinking I have the situation in my mind from the mirror... I then look to confirm it. I call this the "motorists' glance back."
The "full upper body look back" though tends to show more of a "I am looking for a place to merge..." it takes a bit more time, as you now have to assess the whole scene in that look... not just verify what you saw in the mirror... needless to say... you better know what is in front of you first... and hold your line as you look back.