Notices
Alt Bike Culture Chopped, dropped, stretched, lifted, and otherwise cut up and put back together. The art and science of choppers, cruisers, lowriders and the vast world of mutant bicycles.

Sail bike?

Old 09-24-16, 12:36 PM
  #51  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
Kites can only pull you downwind and to either side of downwind to angles of about 60° to either side.

OTOH a sail works best in cross winds, and will work at any angle including upwind up to about 35-45° of dead ahead.
hard to tack a course on a narrow Bike path..


We have Boats on the river for that .. a vistor last wednesday VFP Golden Rule Project | Advancing VFP Opposition to Nuclear Weapons and War

but due to the storm coming ashore next morning, stayed in port until this morning..
fietsbob is offline  
Old 09-24-16, 12:37 PM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,430 Times in 1,343 Posts
I can't imagine (with my limited imagination) that a powered propeller could be more efficient than driving the wheels. In any case, this one wasn't the vehicle which set the record. The 126mph vehicle was purpose built with a single outrigger, and taller wing and no prop.

Yes, I know it's an old thread, but it seems to be reborn.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 09-24-16, 12:41 PM
  #53  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,430 Times in 1,343 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob
hard to tack a course on a narrow Bike path..


.
You missed the point.

a 270°+ workable wind angle range is vastly superior to one limited to one of 120° or less. Also consider that wind power is most effective when the wind angle is slightly forward of abeam. This way the wind speed increase with the vehicle speed, making speeds faster than the wind possible.

OTOH - running down wind, the wind power diminishes with vehicle speed and the maximum speed possible is less than the wind speed.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 09-24-16, 12:42 PM
  #54  
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18319 Post(s)
Liked 4,488 Times in 3,337 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
I can't imagine (with my limited imagination) that a powered propeller could be more efficient than driving the wheels. In any case, this one wasn't the vehicle which set the record. The 126mph vehicle was purpose built with a single outrigger, and taller wing and no prop.
Oh, it takes a little imagination, but it is a wind driven propeller that drives the vehicle faster than the wind. I don't remember if it was connected to the wheels or not.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
OTOH - running down wind, the wind power diminishes with vehicle speed and the maximum speed possible is less than the wind speed.
With a spinnaker sail, that would be true. But with the propeller above, it isn't true. The vehicle actually runs direct down wind faster than the wind.

Water?
Note those record runs were done in a dry lake bed.
Imagine the benefits of future climate change

Last edited by CliffordK; 09-24-16 at 12:48 PM.
CliffordK is online now  
Old 09-24-16, 01:03 PM
  #55  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,430 Times in 1,343 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK
Oh, it takes a little imagination, but it is a wind driven propeller that drives the vehicle faster than the wind. I don't remember if it was connected to the wheels or not.
Yes, it can have positive speed, meaning run downwind faster than the wind, but that's about the only benefit. Since most of us are more concerned with ground speed, it's usefulness is limited.



Originally Posted by CliffordK
With a spinnaker sail, that would be true. But with the propeller above, it isn't true. The vehicle actually runs direct down wind faster than the wind.
I don't know why you quoted my comparison to kites here. but it was out of context, except maybe to note that a propeller may be faster than a kite in the limited conditions. OTOH, it may not be relevant to compare a HPV (prop) to a WPV, or hybrid, wind/wing, with leg power boost.

If you look at his 126mph wind record, I'm sure that if the vehicle had pedal power geared for speeds in the 125+ range, he could have kicked (no pun) it up a notch over the 126.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 06-22-17, 06:03 PM
  #56  
Senior Member
 
capnjonny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Saratoga calif.
Posts: 1,047

Bikes: Miyata 610(66cm), GT Vantara Hybrid (64cm), Nishiki International (64cm), Peugeot rat rod (62 cm), Trek 800 Burning Man helicopter bike, Bob Jackson frame (to be restored?) plus a never ending stream of neglected waifs from the Bike exchange.

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 623 Times in 225 Posts
Back in the day when I attended U C Davis there were thousands of bikes on a campus that is essentially flat. When it was windy we would ride down wind and spread our arms out wearing an open jacket and use it for a sail. it worked and was fun. Pretty hard to do anything but down wind since a side wind would tend to blow you over. it would work better with 3 or 4 wheels but a 2 wheel bike, not.
capnjonny is offline  
Old 06-22-17, 06:45 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK
With a spinnaker sail, that would be true. But with the propeller above, it isn't true. The vehicle actually runs direct down wind faster than the wind.
I know this is an old post but I'm pretty sure this is impossible. If you're going directly down wind, as you approach the speed of the wind the relative wind tends toward zero. Even if (magically) there is no tire and bearing drag, once you hit the speed of wind, relative wind disappears.
tyrion is offline  
Old 06-22-17, 07:25 PM
  #58  
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18319 Post(s)
Liked 4,488 Times in 3,337 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion
I know this is an old post but I'm pretty sure this is impossible. If you're going directly down wind, as you approach the speed of the wind the relative wind tends toward zero. Even if (magically) there is no tire and bearing drag, once you hit the speed of wind, relative wind disappears.
That is what one would think, but apparently not quite true.

It would be true with a spinnaker sail. But, the direct downwind cars are being driven by a propeller. But, rather than having the wind turn the propeller, the wheels turn the propeller which blows wind out the back. So, the faster the vehicle moves forward, the faster the propeller turns, and the more wind it blows against the blowing wind from the rear.

Or, perhaps one would say the greater the pressure differential between front and rear.

Here is a good explanation.
https://www.wired.com/2010/06/downwi...than-the-wind/

Apparently they have built upwind vehicles using the opposite principle.
https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wind-powered-car-upwind/
CliffordK is online now  
Old 06-22-17, 08:40 PM
  #59  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: A quiet place devoid of nazis telling me how I may express myself
Posts: 151

Bikes: An ultra heavily moderated custom Merlin.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
You missed the point.

a 270°+ workable wind angle range is vastly superior to one limited to one of 120° or less. Also consider that wind power is most effective when the wind angle is slightly forward of abeam. This way the wind speed increase with the vehicle speed, making speeds faster than the wind possible.

OTOH - running down wind, the wind power diminishes with vehicle speed and the maximum speed possible is less than the wind speed.
Actually, the faster you go the more the apparent wind angle shifts foreward, to the extent that really fast boats, like America's Cup foiling cats are ALWAYS sailing upwind, regardless of True Wind Angle. And...the suckers are doing 30 kts in maybe 11 kts of wind.
Nick94804 is offline  
Old 06-22-17, 08:56 PM
  #60  
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
Wow, that is fascinating in its unintuitiveness.

Originally Posted by CliffordK
That is what one would think, but apparently not quite true.

It would be true with a spinnaker sail. But, the direct downwind cars are being driven by a propeller. But, rather than having the wind turn the propeller, the wheels turn the propeller which blows wind out the back. So, the faster the vehicle moves forward, the faster the propeller turns, and the more wind it blows against the blowing wind from the rear.

Or, perhaps one would say the greater the pressure differential between front and rear.

Here is a good explanation.
https://www.wired.com/2010/06/downwi...than-the-wind/

Apparently they have built upwind vehicles using the opposite principle.
https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wind-powered-car-upwind/
tyrion is offline  
Old 06-23-17, 11:21 AM
  #61  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 832
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Mars
I sail. You can defineitely go much faster than the wind. Ice boats (on blades like skates) can go over 100 mph. One of the problems to overcome with a sailbike would be the heeling induced by the sail. Think of how those boats are leaned way over in the wind. A thought I had is a sail on a skateboard, sort of like a land windsurfer...

I've used a sail on a skateboard when I was younger. two pieces of emt bolted together at one end, with a sheet sewn between them. it was fun, especially just before a storm. it finally dawned on me though, that holding two metal poles with a storm rolling in wasn't one of my brightest ideas. haven't done it since.
Philphine is offline  
Old 08-05-17, 07:44 PM
  #62  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lol a sail bike?? Sounds like a horrible idea unless you are out in the middle of the desert with no cars around to dodge.
greg1983 is offline  
Old 08-11-17, 12:37 PM
  #63  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
desert fun!
maxm is offline  
Old 08-23-17, 01:35 PM
  #64  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That Whike is awesome! Quite the sail, as well.
Eusterdan is offline  
Old 10-26-17, 03:26 PM
  #65  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That's really interesting, hope it works out
oliviathesis is offline  
Old 10-27-17, 11:02 AM
  #66  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
There are Trikes that have a Mast & sail, Like Ice Boats, but wheels rather than ice skate like blades.

they are long , wide wheel base, but still can be blown over by the wind.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-23-18, 02:14 AM
  #67  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I typed "bicycle sail" in the search box on YouTube and there's quite a few vids on bikes with sails.
Roger2 is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 01:32 PM
  #68  
Member
 
Saale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sailing and two wheels will NOT go together.

Land yachts are cool as ice, but they will not do well on public roads, and may actually pose a hazard to yourself and others.

Sail safely and sail cool.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
1517742868163.jpg (860.9 KB, 136 views)
Saale is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 01:59 PM
  #69  
Senior Member
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,825

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 128 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4742 Post(s)
Liked 3,860 Times in 2,509 Posts
Originally Posted by MacG
The only way to sail a bike faster than the wind is to have a wide vehicle that can resist a serious tipping power.

A run, when the wind is at your back, allows you to approach the speed of the wind and applies little to no tipping force to the craft.

When the sail is hauled in and the craft turned to cross the wind, then the speed picks up. I think the optimum angle (for a boat) is about 30 degrees off of the wind on either side. The elusive component that allows a sailboar to move forwards and not just blow sideways is the keel or board. The boat has what is literally a wing flying through the water underneath it. The propulsion (other than on a run, when you have a floating parachute) is caused by the fighting of the wing under the water against the wing in the air (the sail).

If you had a wide trike, you could probably sail crosswind. The keel's job would be provided by the wheels (preventing the sideways motion of the craft) and as long as the rig was wide enough to be stable, you could probably get some speed up.

The biggest problem is that you are heavily limited by the direction of the wind, so you would probably only be able to sail in a large open area, like the salt flats or a big sports field. I don't think that a sail would be able to provide any advantages or even be very feasable in town or on trails, unfortunately.

That said, I'll put in a six pack to the first person to create a sailbike capable of traveling crosswind at speeds greater than the measured wind (without pedal/motor assistance, naturally). Gentlemen (and ladies); start your welders!
"Tipping power" is easy to achieve on a bike. You just lean the bike into the wind. Anytime you ride in a crosswind, you are doing it without even thinking. Look up "skate sailing". That is exactly what they do, on ice skates instead of wheels.

A well rigged bike should be able to hit speeds far greater than wind speed on sail power alone. Skate sail like speeds shouldn't be a challenge. (We never recorded wind speeds but I have done over 40 - half again what the fastest kid in a pickup hockey game could do - and my dad was clocked once at 60 on police radar.) Good ice boats go 3X wind speed and I think 5X would be achievable with a full wing sail and complete fairing.
79pmooney is offline  
Old 09-08-18, 08:55 AM
  #70  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 24

Bikes: Steintrike Explorer. Trek full suspension Mountain bike. Trek FuelX

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Yes you can

I built a skateboard wind surfer. Took it to Jack Murphy Stadium parking lot. Lots of fun. Ice boats were the fastest thing before airplanes. In the desert they run trikes on dry lake beds. It has all been done. Bike might work but not as good as a trike. You must balance the load.

Last edited by Lawrence Rhodes; 09-08-18 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Typo
Lawrence Rhodes is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 07:25 PM
  #71  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
A tip-able rig like on a sail board would help steer.
stringmaster is offline  
Old 09-22-19, 09:41 AM
  #72  
Bradford
 
Code Zero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: No. Tustin, California
Posts: 9

Bikes: Trek Rail three, Trek Rail one, Dyno Roadster

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Outrigger Sail Bike

There have been many variants of sail bikes in the past, just google it. A while back I decided that I would developed my own rendition. With the help of a few technical engineering friends, add beer, the ideas started flowing. After several months, several prototypes, and several beers the outcome was the Outrigger Sail Bike, but we just call it the Code Zero. Check out my album or look it up on Instagram. I will post photos as soon as I have at least 10 posts
Code Zero is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 09:31 AM
  #73  
rebmeM roineS
 
JanMM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Metro Indy, IN
Posts: 16,216

Bikes: Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 225 Posts
When this thread was born in 2005, sail bikes were illegal in all 48 states.

Zombie Thread alert!

For Sale in 2012: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/19...-00-obo.18548/
__________________
Bacchetta Giro A20, RANS V-Rex, RANS Screamer
JanMM is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 01:08 PM
  #74  
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,775

Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,102 Times in 1,366 Posts
I don’t care if it’s a zombie thread, it’s great
Darth Lefty is offline  
Old 09-25-19, 09:05 AM
  #75  
Bradford
 
Code Zero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: No. Tustin, California
Posts: 9

Bikes: Trek Rail three, Trek Rail one, Dyno Roadster

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Zombie alert? 2005, Ok I get it. Thanks
Code Zero is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Campag4life
Road Cycling
39
03-30-16 10:55 AM
Gresp15C
Commuting
37
12-15-15 12:27 PM
Sallom89
Road Cycling
47
12-01-12 12:38 PM
John Phoenix
Electric Bikes
0
11-05-10 04:32 PM
deacon mark
Road Cycling
102
03-16-10 04:25 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.