elfonamouse

I live in Los Angeles/Westside and work in Santa Monica about 4 miles away. Most of the commute I have a dedicated bike lane. I do have two short stretches of 2 lane road with no bike lane. I usually ride far enough to the left so that I am out of the way of a the door of a parked car being opened in front of me. This means that cars wanting to pass me on the left have to wait until the traffic is clear coming the other way so they can safely cross the double yellow line. This means they pass me at a much safer distance than if I was further to the right. If am closer to the curb they will try to pass me without crossing the double yellow and come much closer to me, making me uncomfortable. Am I right? I would love to know other peoples thoughts on the subject.

Insidious C. 

I guess you need to judge the risk of car door and risk of getting hit from behind, and choose a line to balance it out best you can. For the short stretches you could reduce speed to make it safer to stay further right. BTW it is not legal to cross double yellow for purpose of passing, so some drivers may feel they are stuck behind you. Sorry that probably doesn't help much.

B. Carfree

You're doing it right. You are also following the vehicle code of CA to the letter. If the lane is not wide enough for a motorist to safely pass you while remaining fully in the lane, then you are supposed to move away from the right side to deter such a dangerous pass. This is one of the explicit exceptions to FRAP.

Also, while the risk of any given door opening in a parked car is very low, if you were to regularly ride in the door zone you would eventually win the door prize. I don't have the links, but the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition had a blurb about dooring being the number one cause of cyclist injuries in those crashes that involve a bike and a car (I guess solo bike crashes may have been ahead of dooring). Also, Chicago had data a year or so ago that indicated over 20% of all cyclist injuries were due to doorings.

andyprough

Oh my - this thread should be all kinds of fun.

Getting my popcorn ready for when the VC and anti-VC crowds show up from the A&S forum.

Leisesturm

That's what I thought too when I saw it last night. I must say I am rather disappointed at the lack of blood and gore thus far. So... if you don't mind my asking... where do you stand on this? I'll show you mine if you show me yours... no reason we can't make our own fun if the usual suspects are on vacation or something...

H

Hypno Toad

I ride ~5,000 miles a year and this ^^^ is my mindset. I have never had a serious issue. I have had aggressive drivers, but, I've had drivers be aggressive when I'm in a bike-lane and completely out of their way... you'll never make 'all drivers' happy. I'm simply not willing to give up my safety for someone's perceived convenience. Which somehow reminds me of:


(Give me Convenience or Give me Death)

I'm not a hard-core nut... if I can yield the road to a car without sacrificing my safety, I will happily move over and let them pass.

jeremybrooks

Yes, this is my approach as well. I'm allowed use of the lane, just like they are. If they don't like it, they can take other roads that tend to have less cyclists.

Leisesturm

Really? It says that? Hmmmm... I mean... who decides what is "wide enough"? The cyclist? Maybe that works in LA, but I can tell you that in PDX, with the incredibly high volume of bicycles moving through the city center, if vehicle traffic had to crawl along at the speed of the average cyclist for much longer than a couple city blocks, there would be an all out cycle ban emplaced after awhile. Some cyclists cannot tolerate any kind of motor traffic near them, and they couldn't possibly be empowered to control lanes all over town en masse without public reaction. What I have seen is that a majority of cyclists do in fact cruise in the door zone. Yours truly included. What I know is that the law is clear on doorings. The driver of the car that doors a cyclist is always wrong. They must check that it is safe to open their door before doing so. It is not the cyclists responsibility to ride clear of the door zone!!! However, it is prudent, when in the door zone, to imagine that a door could open without warning and be prepared to react. This has in fact happened a couple of times since I moved to the city. The drivers have always been extremely apologetic and it really is much ado about nothing all this angst over the door zone. Many streets in Portland allow mixed bicycle and car traffic and thus cyclists can ride freely as far from the dreaded door zone as they want. Those streets are not the majority of streets in Portland. The majority will allow a cyclist to hold traffic for a time but it is not an indefinite amount of time. Why invite the stress? The cyclists that learn to share the lane and allow vehicle traffic to ease by are doing way more to be good cycling ambassadors than any amount of self-righteous letter of the law types that do not ever run stop signs or red signals in the name of "good cyclist behavior" but then proceed to infuriate every driver behind them as they "take the lane" for six blocks at a time in the middle of town.

H

CrankyOne

You're doing it exactly as you probably should for the situation.

Now, having read a number of crash and hospital reports for bicycle riders hit while doing this (and of those I read the majority were cars cutting back in too soon rather than direct hits from behind), I'll go to great lengths to avoid riding in such a place.

Jim from Boston

As a decades-long, year-round urban commuter, a cardinal rule is "Like a gum (censored), treat every stopped car as if it is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit on either side." These situations are much more easily maneuvered with a rear view mirror. I wear two, right and left.

Leisesturm

I can't tell you how many times I have wondered why a given car bothered to pull over to pass me if he was going to cut back in so soon! But how does a cyclist get hit like that?!! Where was the cyclist positioned? If they were FRAP, I find it hard to imagine them getting hurt because one thing cars do well is stay clear of other cars (except when they don't, but lets stay on topic...) so I'm not understanding. Cycle close to the parked cars, and the streaming cars staying clear of the parked cars will stay clear of you! I really need to arrange for someone to follow me and video it so I can send it to this forum as a sticky. I consider myself an expert. I've been doing it on both coasts for a really, really long time now. My way works! The VC, LC, TTL, devotees.... you're the ones getting hit all the time!!! SMH. I really don't understand.

H

Booger1

I live in L.A. also,so I ride the same streets.

CVC 21656...On a 2-4 lane HWY (1-2 in each direction) you can take the lane untill 5 cars pile up behind,then you have to let them pass.On a 6 lane HWY,you can take the lane and cars can pile up for miles.

I normally do just that.If I can't because of too much traffic,I'll find another way if it something I need to do all of the time.

I have no problem riding on the sidewalk if need be.I won't if there is lots of foot traffic....and I'm not real crazy about it,but if that's what it takes.

B. Carfree

I'd wager about anything that I have much more cycling experience than you. Your door-zone riding works... until it doesn't. Sure, you can creep along at a jogging pace so that the probability of being thrown under the overtaking bus by an opening door goes down, but if one rides significant miles in the door zone it's only a matter of time until s/he is launched by a door.

We've only had three deaths of cyclists down here in Lane County in the past seven years. One was a cyclist who fell down (wheel crossover in a pace line) and was run over by a tailgating logging truck. One was a child who crossed a street mid-block on his bike; the first car stopped to allow him to cross but a passing motorist ran him over. The third was thrown to the ground when a motorist doored him. Even the SFPD has put out a video recommending cyclists stay at least four feet from parked cars. They're tired of responding to the carnage they find when cyclists, mostly newbies, ride in the door zone.

Feel free to roll the dice by riding in the door zone, but please don't encourage others to do the same. I spent six months getting a door-zone bike lane rectified and I interviewed far too many people who had been injured by motorists who casually and illegally opened their car doors into them to during that process to ever recommend that anyone ride in such a foolish manner.

spare_wheel

Riding in the door zone is a form of Russian roulette. IMO, sidewalk riding is safer.

I also live in PDX and while some cyclists do ride in the door zone, the majority do not. The ones that ride in the door zone also tend to weave in and out of parking spots and to hang back at intersections because they are afraid of being hit by stationary vehicles (but not afraid of being right hooked by a moving car).



I ride in the lane just about everywhere in close-in PDX. Moreover, large swathes of PDX have actual or de facto speed limits of 20 or below (e.g. all of downtown).

Greg M

If there is adecent shoulder I will ride the shoulder. If not, then I take the lane. 32 mile round trip , 5 days a week, rain or shine or snow. The only times Ive been buzzed or clipped are the times I havent been agressive and taken the lane, just lesurely riding the white line. And that is riding into the city, N.Y. If they can squeeze by they will, without realizing how close they are. But when youre out there they have to pay attention. I also wear bright loud clothing. I've been told I can be seen a mile a way.

jacobinchina

I just moved back to the States from a place where there are many more cyclists, lanes are narrower, and there's just less personal space in general. I am used to really close passing, so maybe it doesn't faze me as much as others. However, I have been grazed twice by rear view mirrors (in China, not in the week since I moved back to America) and would like to avoid that happening again.

With parked cars and/or buses, I think riders just need to be aware of their surroundings and make impersonal decisions. Yeah, my ego (and burning thighs) doesn't want to stop on this hill just because there's a parked car and there's a car coming up behind me, but people are texting, playing on the radio, or just don't like bicycles and I don't really need to risk injury. Sure, the state law where I am says that bicycles shall be granted all the rights of a motorized vehicle, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when I get hit.

TransitBiker

Great album.

I will never ride in the "door zone". Riding into a door can cause show-stopping damage to rider and bike, as well as legal implications, courtrooms etc. Most states or state equivalents that allow bicycles on paved public roads also state they can use the full lane to avoid hazards. I'd call riding into a door at 20 mph a hazard.

- Andy

jrickards

I think that if you were grazed by a rear view mirror, you'd have been run over, I think you meant side view.

However, you not wanting to have that happen again is entirely reasonable.

I noticed a car passing a bit too close for comfort this week and I came to the realization that it's not until it passes that I realized how close it was.

jacobinchina

You can tell how much I drive... Wow. I hope there's not a vocabulary test when I get my driver's license renewed!

alan s 

My ride home requires me to ride one block through jammed, not moving or slow moving traffic. I always filter between the stopped cars and parked cars. It's a double door zone, because people are getting out of cars and cabs to my left and parked cars to my right. Like running the gauntlet. The worst, most dangerous part of my commute, which is otherwise on beautiful MUPs. Never been doored because I'm hypervigilent, but only for that one block. I'd find another route if it was any farther.

I-Like-To-Bike

Is there a sidewalk adjacent to the road for the one block? If so, would it not be better to be hypervigilent while riding on it for the one block?

alan s 

There is a narrow crowded sidewalk, not for riding a bike. I could walk there, but no desire to.

xuwol7

Wow, another car vs bike commuting thread.
You will get the hard core commuters that take the lane and ride safely with traffic and you will have the bicycle apologists that basically say they are not worthy of riding on the road with cars and cower along the white line inviting cars to bully them..

Don't ever ride in the door zone and always be aware of your surroundings and make sure cars see you and adknowledge your presence.
If you take the lane do it with confidence and predictability and follow the rules of the road.

Take as much room that makes you feel safe, simple as that.
If riding on the sidewalk do so at walking speed and be mindful that it is statistically more dangerous, always yield to pedestrians and be on the lookout for cars entering and exiting driveways.

I have the mind set while commuting that they can't see me and are trying to run me over.
Never assume that the cars will always see you and they may not consciously try to run you over but these days a lot of drivers are distracted by texting/talking on the phone.

I always use lights night and day, wear hi-vis clothes and choose my route that feels safe to me.

Leisesturm

It may be 'another' car vs. bike commuting thread, but it has one key difference. Leisesturm is in it and he is going to make sure that this particular car vs. bike commuting thread ends up being more informative than the dozens (more?) that have gone before. Specifically, Leisesturm is challenging the "take the lane" devotees to explain exactly what that means. Once and for freaking all. I ride in close in Portland. Specifically northbound on Milwaukie starting at Holgate, through Division where Milwaukie turns into 12th ave northbound. I proceed for another mile on 12th to around Stark. There is no biike lane and for the first 1/2 mile it is one lane in either direction. This being Portland, I could... I suppose, take the lane all the way and have traffic strung out behind me for 2 miles... but I don't do that, no one I know does that and I don't even think that the most rabid "take the laner" is advocating that anyone do that. So.... why even mention it********** I have known of cyclists that "take the lane" for a few blocks at a time and then stop and let traffic pass and repeat the process. I choose not to do that. It wastes a LOT of time. My time. My resoning is that if I can pull aside for short periods to let traffic by then I can simply hold that position (and my cruising speed) in the FRAP and that traffic that wants to pass (not all of it does) can pass and those that want to hang back until there is no oncoming traffic can do that. The choice is theirs. I arrive at my destination in much the same amount of time irregardless! If riding in the door zone was really Russian Roulette I would be dead because their siimply isn't that much good luck in two Universes. I don't know a single human being who voted for Bush but someone must have. Only on Internet political forums do Republicans and Conservatives expand their ideologies. In actual life. No. As I ride the highways and by-ways I see most cyclists riding mainly like I do! I don't see any Lane Control, no extended taking of anything called a lane and I see a fair amount of red light running. In here. Different deal. Everyone is a militant, take no stuff of the cagers, boss who always gets home safe because they make sure 1. the cars see them and 2. that they know what will happen to them if they get too close (i.e. <3 ft.) For once, can we cut the hyperbole and the militancy and rationally and clearly, explain effective techniques of commuting such that a newcomer to the community can have practical guidelines to consider as best practice. Please and thank-you in advance.

H

xuwol7

Nice, you speak of yourself in 3rd person, do you argue just to argue and do you argue with yourself in the mirror too... lol

Calm down, Simply take as much of the lane that you feel safe, yes indeed pull over if you are impeding traffic etc... did you even read my entire post?
hmmm...

It's really common sense, and I don't see it as us vs them...
Just be safe, polite and aware..
simple