spectastic

Shimano still uses the 24mm gap bb standard. As a result, almost all high end bikes need adapters or oversized bb's to fit a shimano crank. It's chains still have the weird lock pin. everyone I know uses the quick links.

This makes no sense. Shimano cranks are still great because of its chainrings. yet they're going against the current when the trend is shifting in favor of the 30mm bb standard. what am I missing?

spectastic

Might not be the best spot to write this. Mods have liberty to move it to a place of better fit.

spectastic

I know a lot of focus is being put on electronic groups and disc brakes. But this crank axle thing and quick link thing seem like really simple things that can make them more money and less hassle on the Consumer

SkyDog75

Almost all high-end bikes are built for 30 mm spindles? Are bikes with BB30 and PF30 bottom brackets outselling bikes fitted with English, Italian, PF90/PF95, & BB86/BB92/BB121 bottom brackets, which can all natively accept 24 mm spindles like Hollowtech II or GXP?

Personally, I hope Shimano doesn't go to a 30 mm spindle. I think their current strategy makes a lot of sense. The same Shimano crankset with a 24 mm spindle can be fitted to just about any bike on the planet -- new or used, high end or not. The same can't be said for most 30 mm cranksets. There are many frames they simply won't work with, not even with an adapter.

That joining pin for Shimano (and Campagnolo) chains, on the other hand... Yeah, it'll be nice if Shimano goes to a reusable joining link. In the meantime, though, it's not a problem since I can just keep buying KMC chains. (Or SRAM or Wippermann.)

Marcus_Ti

There's a special place in hell for the people at Shimano and Campy who came up with those non reusable pins (and their proprietary chaintools) in place of quick links.

Regarding cranks. BB30 was supposed to make things simpler and more durable....now instead of 2 or 3 BB/crank "standards" we now have what 9 or 10 "standards"? BB30 isn't a "standard" so much as a flavor of ice cream like all the other post-sqaure-taper designs. And I'm not at all convinced the damn things are any more stiff to the lay user or wear at all better than the ISIS and square taper BBs/Cranks they replaced...and they cost 2-3X what the square taper BB/cranks did.

HillRider

Well, yes, Campy specifies absurdly expensive proprietary chain joining tools and has even changed the tool they require at least three times over the past few years.

Shimano chains and pins, on the other hand, can be cut and joined with any common chain tool so there is no valid complaint about them. Their special joining pins are relatively cheap, easy enough to install properly and reliable. Also, KMC and Wipperman master links can be used with a Shimano chain if you don't like the pins or want to remove your chain frequently.

ThermionicScott 

Shimano sometimes doesn't go along with the trends when they feel their technology is superior. They might be developing a product, or just waiting it out until the "standard" changes again. Note that they still make cup-and-cone hubs, too.

fietsbob

New, pre season offerings , usually first hits the dealer/industry trade shows . (German one is earlier in the fall, than the Las Vegas US one. )
Taipei has its own trade show, where most of the bike manufacturing is clustered these days ..


after they sort out prototypes with the Pro hired 'guinea pigs' trying them , in the Euro race season.

dr_lha

Shimano cranksets currently can be made to work with every modern BB shell size, IIRC, in fact many BB30 bikes are being sold with Shimano cranksets. Maybe they just decided that it's easier for them to sell one universal size crankset, than to start making lots of different sizes for different BBs?

spectastic

if you look at any of the high end road frames.... ANY of them these days, none of them are BSA anymore. they've all gone to bb30 of pf30. and while the 24mm spindle will work on any frame, the guys who are willing to spend big bucks for their bikes are looking for performance gains. It's been proven that while BB30 is a PITA compared to BSA, it does offer marginally better pedaling efficiency with the shorter and thicker axle. there's a report out there that shows the dura ace crankset is one of the stiffest on the drive side, and the least stiff on the non drive side, meaning the spindle has become its weak link. we're talking small watts, but savings none the less. if shimano comes out with a BB30 option, especially in the higher end groups, I'm pretty sure it will be well received, because it will save people the trouble to buy/sell an extra adapter, or bottom bracket, or crankset, and keep their groupset complete.

jimc101

It's because they didn't design it, BB30 is an open standard from Cannondale. Shimano don't normally do anything others have started like this. BB30 Standard History | BB30 Standard

If you want something new, just look at Flat Mounts for discs, Shimano is introducing these which will probably be standard on road bikes from 2016/7 Shimano introduces new road disc brake standard - BikeRadar

spectastic

I'm also curious to see how the disc brake thing will unfold. It would be nice to have something light weight that doesn't limit the life span of your rims. It would be especially helpful for carbon rims.

SkyDog75

Just out of curiosity (and not to be argumentative), I looked up a bunch of high-end bike specs, including all of this year's TdF manufacturers. You're right that BSA is dead at the ultra-high end and almost everyone has gone to press-fit bearings, but not everyone's gone to a 30 mm spindle.

24 mm
BMC Team Machine SLR01 = BB86 (was BB30 until 2012)
Canyon Aeroad = PF86
Colnago C60 = BB86
Giant TCR Advanced = BB86
Lapierre Aircode Ultimate = BB86
Orbea Orca = PF86
Trek Emonda = BB90
Scott Foil = BB92

30 mm
Bianchi Oltre XR.2 = PF30
Cannondale = BB30
Cervelo = BBright
Felt F1 = BB30
Focus Izalco = PF30
Merida Reacto Team E = BB386EVO
Ridley Noah = PF30
Specialized Venge = OSBB (BB30)

Other
Pinarello Dogma = Italian Threaded
Look = Zed-2 (65 mm)

davidad

They are the 800 pound gorilla. They will get around to it when they feel the need to make something new and improved to make more money.

hueyhoolihan

hueyhoolihan

really.

it's like a complaint about a car manufacturer because they don't offer a model with electronic fuel injection, yet fail to mehtion that they still require the use of a crank start.

dedhed

I suspect this is a lot of it - While there is money to be made in the high end market, middle of the road pays the bills. I'd bet on 80% of the bikes sold, people could care less if it's stiffer, or marginally better efficiency and small watt gains.

HillRider

Proven or just claimed by the marketing department of makers of BB30 cranks? I'd really like to see an independent study that reached that conclusion. This entire "greater stiffness" fad for cranks, frames, handlebars and every thing else has been taken , and claimed, to the point of absurdity.

Point

You're right on the stiffness end. You've got to take into account the entire frame design to account for any change in lateral stiffness, with no quantified advantage. This has been hashed over ad nauseum on the road cycling forum. Nobody has offered any real proof of increased performance with BB30 or other "oversized" spindle over the old square taper. My personal experience is the old square taper with cup and cone or cartridge BB is hard to beat. The only advantage to external bearings, BB30, etc. is to simplify the installation, no real advantage to the rider

Aillaragis

Shimano has no intention of making a 30mm spindle crank. The 24mm system is superior. It may not be as stiff or as light, but it's way less likely to cause creaking issues. The same goes for the chain. A powerlink is the weakest link in the chain. A properly pinned shimano link is the strongest link in the chain. There is no reason to ever take your chain off unless it's to replace it. Shimano has their own priorities, and following trends isn't one of them.

dedhed

IDK about that - It sure makes it easier to clean the chain and drive train taking it off. Commuting in all kinds of weather in urban areas has me taking my chain off at least a half dozen times during it's lifetime to clean it and the rest of the bike. I stick with the removable link - I've cleaned my chains a lot more than I've broken them. In fact the only one that I've ever broken was a Shimano. To be fair, that one did come with the group I purchased used, so I didn't know it's history.

gsa103

There's significantly less incentive for Shimano to switch to quick-links since everyone has moved to 11-speed.

Both KMC and SRAM say that the 11-speed quick links are not re-usable. Shimano connecting pins are a simpler, more compact non-reusable link.

FastJake

Except that it takes a simple threaded system and makes it a PIA with a press fit that has notorious tolerance issues.

HillRider

Absolutely right. The real weakness with any of the press-fit systems is that they are very "intolerant" of tolerances and most of the problems can be traced to a poor match between the bb shell and the bearings or inserts. I'm convinced they were a solution looking for a problem. BTW, now there are English and Italian threaded external bearings available that work with 30 mm spindles (BSA30 and Italian 30) so even that objection has been overcome.

Kimmo

BB30 is crap. Because the metal/metal fit and the groove/circlip deal is dodgy and creaky.

But PF30 rocks, because it solves that problem and lets the two advantages of BB30 cranks shine: 1, the 30mm diameter allows an ally or carbon spindle for the weight weenies (hence the pricier nature of BB30 cranks), and 2. the shorter (and crazy stiff) spindle means much more heel clearance, which most riders would notice compared to an external bearing crank, resulting in more comfort and no more scuffed crank arms.

I'd be surprised if Shimano doesn't do at least a DA one eventually.