Fogre

Some info up front:

Frame: Lynskey Peloton, size L
Wheel: Bicycle Wheel Warehouse "Pure" Brand; rear is 32 hole 3 cross, DT Swiss double-butted spokes. I believe they're standard 14/15/14 gauge on the drive side, but have a lighter spoke on the non-drive side (15/16/15?). These same light spokes are used on the entire front wheel (28 hole 2 cross).
Rider Weight: 210 lbs

I've been noticing this problem for a while... My rear tire is uncomfortably close to the left chainstay (roughly 1.5 - 2.0 mm closer than to the right chainstay), and it appears to be off center to the brake bridge, but the wheel is straight and true...according to my LBS. I've taken the wheel in twice; the first time by itself, the second time on the bike. Both times they put the wheel in the truing stand and said there's nothing wrong with the wheel. On the second visit, I asked them to look at it in the frame, which they did: the mechanic agreed there's something wrong, but he wasn't sure what.

I've tried flipping the wheel around in the dropouts a few times, just to see if the problem would be reversed and the tire would now be closer to the right chainstay... The first time, it did seem to be a bit closer to the right chainstay; the second time, I was certain it was (after that is when I first took the wheel in to the LBS); the third time, with the whole bike at the LBS with the mechanic, it also looked like it was now closer to the right chainstay, but he didn't know what to make of that. He did inspect the frame for cracks and such, but didn't find anything.

While I'm fairly competent with most everything else when it comes to bicycle mechanics, wheels are one thing I have next to no experience with. Is it possible for a wheel to be true when in a stand, but for the dish (correct term?) to be completely off, or for the wheel to be slightly crooked? The mechanic at the bike shop seemed to be leaning toward the problem being a frame issue. I'm certain that a few years ago when the bike was new, this wasn't a problem; I remember looking at the wheel below the brake bridge, and appreciating how the center boss was directly over the tire... How easy is it to permanently twist the rear triangle of a titanium road frame...?

So... Some pictures. In the first one, you can see how the wheel sits a touch off-center below the brake bridge (sorry the picture's sideways, I'm not sure why it was posted that way). The second picture is a combination of two pictures showing the tire distance from each chainstay.





Thank you in advance for everyone's help!

cny-bikeman

If you took the bike to a shop and the "mechanic" could not tell you what was wrong with the frame, and could not simply put a dishing gauge on the wheel to determine if it was OK, then you need a different mechanic or shop. It's fairly simple to check a frame for alignment and child's play for a mechanic to check a wheel for proper centering (dish). Pictures will not help at all - need to measure.

All you have to do to understand dish is to look it up with Google. Same with alignment by looking up bike string test.

By the way the difference is minor, considering the small overall clearance

Fogre

In their defense, they are a small-town LBS that mainly works on Wal-Mart cruisers and mountain bikes... But I was afraid this might be the case; I was certain there was some way besides a truing stand of checking if a rim is centered over the hub. (Does a truing stand even tell you that, or does it only show if the rim is straight?)

I'll try and do a string test sometime this weekend, and I may end up packing up and heading to a larger bike shop to have them take a look at things. Nearest one (including the one I bought the frame from) is about 50 miles away...

Thanks!

cny-bikeman

The dishing gauge I mentioned is the best way to check a wheel. A truing stand is no better than flipping the wheel in the frame for this small an error. There is a method to check dish that FBinNY has suggested before. Take the tire/tube off the wheel and find a nice, flat surface larger than the wheel. Support the rim with three stacks of quarters in a triangle, high enough to hold the axle off the surface. Measure the gap between the axle end and the surface. Carefully lift the wheel off the quarters and flip to the other side. If there's a difference in measurement then the wheel is not dished.

Frames do not come out of alignment without some major force applied to them.

FastJake

Wheel is not correctly dished, and the fix is very simple. Tighten the right side spokes and loosen the left side spokes until it is. This may be as little as a quarter turn in each direction. Or you can just live with it. But if it bothers you, which it obviously does, the fix is quick and permanent.

If you took your car to a "mechanic" and they didn't know how to change your oil or you went to a "doctor" and they didn't know how to check your pulse, would you give them a break?

Someone that can't figure out a wheel is incorrectly dished is not a bike mechanic. An employee or a salesman maybe, but not a mechanic.

Andrew R Stewart 

I wouldn't trust a frame to be a dishing tool. I do agree with the simple ability for a bike mechanic to check wheel dish is so basic that... And never done with a truing stand only. BTW a QR spring installed backward will make a properly dished wheel sit off center in the frame. Andy.

andr0id

NO!

On a built wheel, rear wheel dish can be completely controlled by tightening or loosening the non drive side spokes and since they are at a considerably lower tension, there should be no need to adjust drive side spokes at all.

ThermionicScott 

That assumes all of the spokes are at an ideal tension to start with.

Bill Kapaun

Slight correction-
Measure to the lock nut, not the axle end, because the axle may not be perfectly centered.

FastJake

If the wheel is flipped around and the opposite offset is observed, doesn't that confirm it? If this were some old clunker other weird things could be going on. But this is a high-end titanium frame.

elmore leonard

Park Tools sell a "Frame and Fork End Alignment Gauge Set" which your LBS should have to check the alignment.
This tool will fix many alignment problems. All bike should be checked with this tool so your bearing wear evenly.

cny-bikeman

Whoops - thanks much, too early in the a.m. apparently.

Fogre

Ha, you do have a point. Perhaps "employee" would have been the better descriptor, since I believe he watches the shop and does basic repairs when the owner isn't in.

I may try to check a few things with the wheel on my own, but I'll probably try and take it to a larger bike shop this weekend. One thing I am wondering, though: since I'm mostly certain the wheel was properly built and this issue only came along this summer, what could have caused it? Some dynamics between the lighter and heavier gauge spokes, coupled with my 210 pounds on top of it? I've hit some good bumps and holes with it, but none were enough to significantly untrue the wheel. Over 3,000 miles it only developed a very slight wobble (I think this was a result of a couple miles of rough gravel), which the LBS fixed (same err, employee) when I brought it in that first time.

Would you all advise that, for any future wheels, I go with something stouter? I've not had any trouble out of the front wheel yet; still straight and true.

rmfnla

The OP said the shop put the wheel in a truing stand and it checked out, so how can the dish be off?

I am assuming it was a Park since that's the only stand worth having and those dish automatically...

andr0id

I'm 185 lbs. I'm fond of 15/16/15 spokes, but I don't think that is the root of your problem. They're not going to "stretch" and make the entire wheel go uniformly out of dish and 32 spokes is more than enough for a 200 pounder.

Either you're looking at a tensioning problem that was present when you bought the wheels or the "the guy" wonked it up last time he messed with them.

Go to a better shop that has a Tensiometer (usually a blue thing that says Park on it) and a real dishing checker, not just a truing stand.

Unless you've massively crashed your Lynsky, (So bad you can't remember?) I don't think it is going to have an alignment problem.

Depends on which one you have and if it's been set up correctly. Yes the indicators are spring loaded and go in together, but that doesn't mean they meet correctly in the middle.

cny-bikeman

One can neither assume it was a properly adjusted Park stand nor that "there's nothing wrong with the wheel" means the dish was verified. Nothing to lose by the OP checking the dish as suggested above.

cny-bikeman

Wheels do not ever come out of dish on their own. Typically the way it happens is that someone trues the wheel from only one side.

rmfnla

I suppose it is possible the stand was in error, but that would be way down my list of things to check...

ThermionicScott 

It's actually very possible for the arms not to be perfectly centered with the indicator. Much better not to assume that the stand is perfectly aligned, and to do a simple flip check for dish on the stand before trying the wheel on a bike. Doesn't take long.

rmfnla

Not saying it's not possible.

After using many of them in various shops over the years I have yet to encounter one that was not centered so I'm saying I don't think it's likely.

You are correct, though; it is an easy thing to check...

dr1445

check the drop out width, maybe a spacer was left out of the axle?

FastJake

Two possibilities: it was built that way from the beginning and you only noticed it recently, or it was put that way after being "fixed." Wheels don't go out-of-dish on their own, someone put it like that. Either on purpose or by accident.

I should point out that there's nothing wrong with a wheel like this, it's not "broken" and you don't need a stronger wheel. If your frame/tire clearances were different you may never have noticed it. Technically a wheel should be centered but functionally a millimeter or two in either direction isn't going to affect anything.

tFUnK

Doesn't look out of the ordinary to me. If the wheel dish checks out, then it's just the minor tolerance of the frame itself. A couple mm is not a big deal, although I do appreciate it can be a bit of a pain if you're trying to squeeze in a fatter tire. Another possible consequence is unequal spacing for clearances on the rear brake pads that can sometimes exceed the adjustment range.

ThermionicScott 

My experience is with one or two, and let's just say I was glad I did the flip checks. Interesting how our experiences shape our opinions.

If it helps, it seems like the centering was more accurate for rear wheels, but when moving the arms further inward to work on a front wheel, that's when the chances for things to get off-center went up.

SJX426 

Skimmed through the comments but didn't see the suggestion to flip the wheel in the stand as well as the frame.