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Shimano 600 /HB 6207 hub cones

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Shimano 600 /HB 6207 hub cones

Old 10-09-15, 04:44 PM
  #1  
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Shimano 600 /HB 6207 hub cones

This is a little hard to describe but here goes . I needed new cones , so I ordered them form Wheels Mfg. I first talked to cust. serv. ( they were real nice ) I got front and rear cones and ball bearings . Rear hub went together fine . Front hub problems are when assembled I only have about 2 threads showing per side , so OK answer would be cone is to long . Well I can't find any difference between old and new same OD and same length so then it would be bearing radius was ground in wrong , I can't see any difference there either . So I just assembled with out the washers , got enough threads showing on the axles . But when I do the final adjustment and get it a little off drag and do the tighten up I can shake the axle up and down & back and forth , tighten up just a little and it locks up . So just as a test I reassembled with the old cones and it was perfect . I'm thinking there is something up with the radius . Thanks for looking , Mark . PS axle is not bent.
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Old 10-09-15, 05:07 PM
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wrong size bearings or too many in the hub ?
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Old 10-09-15, 05:07 PM
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Take a ball bearing out?
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Old 10-09-15, 05:28 PM
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"So just as a test I reassembled with the old cones and it was perfect . I'm thinking there is something up with the radius" markwesti

I suspect you've answered your question here. If the balls don't ride I the, roughly, middle of the cone track but instead ride on the very small end of the track you'll get much of what you are reporting. It doesn't take much cone track small end difference for this to happen. By not changing the ball count but going back to the OEM cones you've provided more evidence that all other possibilities are not in play. Andy.
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Old 10-09-15, 05:52 PM
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Wrong size bearings crossed my mind , they are 3/ 16 and they measured out .1875 , so did the old ones . As far as to many , you can't really do that . But I counted the old ones at 10 a side . I also thought just take one out , tried it didn't work .
Andy thanks for the thoughts , If I think about it too much I start to realize what a precision set up this is , the fit of the hub bearing race the ball then the cone I imagine needs to be right there on a parallel or am I over thinking it ?
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Old 10-09-15, 06:26 PM
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I'm only suggesting this, Mark, because I've done dumber.
Check to see if there is something stuck in the hub.

And. You said you tried it with the old ones, and it worked fine?
Then build one side with new, one with old, see what happens.
Maybe even try one side old, the the other side old, and slowly swap new parts in, one at a time.
Sort of like plug 'n' play, but in reverse.

Seriously.
I'm way too much of an idiot to figure out why, I just try stuff.
Sometimes, it works.
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Old 10-09-15, 06:36 PM
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I feel your pain RT, and thanks for the suggestions . Here is what I'm thinking .... First I talked to Wheel Mfg . this morning , they are going to send me some new cones .( free of charge ) if that doesn't do it , I will be on the hunt for some NOS cones , and all I really need is one .
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Old 10-09-15, 06:42 PM
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Looking through Wheels Mfg's offerings, it does look like their front cones do have different depths or tapers to the bearing surfaces (or maybe the pictures are not all to the same scale and that's messing with me.) Their compatibility chart doesn't list the 6207 (at least anymore) so perhaps they gave you the closest part they make. If you can substitute a thinner washer between the cone and locknut, perhaps that will restore the OLD. If nothing else, know that the OLD of the hub doesn't need to match the dropout width perfectly, and that you only need a couple mm of protruding axle in the dropout.
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Old 10-09-15, 06:58 PM
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Thanks for that Scott , Wheel Mfg's . chart is a little off , but they have a great cust. surv . I did try just no washers and I would have just gone with that but the end play adjustment is really off . PS , Scott thanks for reminding me about the OLD .

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Old 10-09-15, 07:39 PM
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If the balls are contacting the small end/edge of the cone's track it will crumble away with use. Ask me how I know... Andy.
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Old 10-09-15, 08:47 PM
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How do you know , Andy ? I think I have to put my mad machinist skill to work and really measure the cones . Like putting a diameter in the bearing area and then taking measurements off the diameter . Will somebody just sell me a cone ?
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Old 10-13-15, 06:29 PM
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I talked to Wheel Mfg . last week and explained the problem , they sent me two new cones . I installed them today , they worked perfect .
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Old 10-13-15, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
How do you know , Andy ? I think I have to put my mad machinist skill to work and really measure the cones . Like putting a diameter in the bearing area and then taking measurements off the diameter . Will somebody just sell me a cone ?
Well when you do this stuff for pay and the repair goes bad the customer often gives you feedback (and maybe another chance). With experience one can tell if the balls are running on the bearing track well or not. The cone sits in the balls differently and the cone has a different spin/stability when right VS when wrong. Unfortunately the education is usually at the expense of having to do the repair a second time. (Which I hate, not the getting it right but the wasted time and bad karma doing wrong costs). Andy.
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Old 10-14-15, 01:14 AM
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I feel your pain Andy , yes had I been doing this for a customer , customer would be (understandably) not happy , but I'm just a retired geezer workin' on my own shi*,
I'm only here for the journey . But on the other hand we are dealing with mid 80's Shimano 600 . This stuff is not that easy to come by , as I'm sure you know . Customers should be made aware there is possible trouble . Also Wheels Mfg . is great to work with , when I tried to explain the problem they were very patient and sent me the new cones for free . Good Karma , thanks Andy .

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Old 10-14-15, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
I talked to Wheel Mfg . last week and explained the problem , they sent me two new cones . I installed them today , they worked perfect .
Awesome! Perhaps they had just sent the ones for the wrong 600 model before.
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Old 10-14-15, 08:48 PM
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The OP can correct if I'm wrong here but, didn't he say that the cones W.Mfg had sent him the first time looked identical to the old cones?

I only ask because I'd be curious to know if the latest (and working) cones also look identical to the other ones, even though they are obviously different if they work where the previous ones didn't.

In other words, are the cones similar enough that the difference could not be noticed when doing a cursory visual comparison?
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Old 10-14-15, 09:31 PM
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"In other words, are the cones similar enough that the difference could not be noticed when doing a cursory visual comparison?" Plimogz

Yes. The differences of the small end of the cone only need to be very slightly larger to "push' the ball contact point down the track's curve to it's edge. The ball track's curve approaches parallel WRT the axle at it's end (some are like some Shimano, others just come close). So a difference in edge diameter of about 1mm can be a big deal. When comparing cones usually the pecking order is- Axle diameter and thread pitch, cone outside (major) diameter, cone length, ball track curve radius, cone small end diameter. Cone OD, length, ball track curve and small end diameter all can vary by a little bit in one direction or another. But there are limits. Small end diameter is kind of hard to be sure of since the real test is by assembling and feeling the result. When new the edge is pretty smooth but it will break down soon enough. Andy.
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Old 10-15-15, 02:03 AM
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right. that makes sense -- as per usual for you, Andy -- Thanks for the reply bty.

So, barring axle diameter and threading identity, would you say that ball track curve inside (minor) diameter is, perhaps, the first thing you would take a good measure of? Or maybe track radius?

Of course, I understand that a proper matching of the above would not necessarily ensure a matching OLD or optimal ball-to-race geometry, but I'm curious to know how a pro would approach the question with 'mystery' replacement cones and nothing else but the old cones and vernier in hand
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Old 10-15-15, 08:14 AM
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@markwesti, somewhere, Sheldon Brown talks about this problem, but in connection with BB bearings. If the cone radius is off, causing the ball bearings to ride on the "shoulder" of the cone rather than in the radius, you can see a wear line on the shoulder. The fix is to use slightly smaller bearings. In his example, he suggests going from 1/4" to 6mm (.236").

I was able to see the bearing track on a black-anodized BB spindle because the wear showed up as a silver line. You may be able to tell on your cones if you grease them heavily with a dark-colored grease, assemble them with the balls, give the wheel a few spins, and check if the grease is evenly worn away in the radius. If the balls are riding on the shoulder, grease will remain in the radius and a line of bare metal should be visible on the shoulder.
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Old 10-15-15, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Plimogz View Post
right. that makes sense -- as per usual for you, Andy -- Thanks for the reply bty.

So, barring axle diameter and threading identity, would you say that ball track curve inside (minor) diameter is, perhaps, the first thing you would take a good measure of? Or maybe track radius?

Of course, I understand that a proper matching of the above would not necessarily ensure a matching OLD or optimal ball-to-race geometry, but I'm curious to know how a pro would approach the question with 'mystery' replacement cones and nothing else but the old cones and vernier in hand
The time honored way to compare cones in shops is after confirming thread spec to hold the two cones (the old and the possible replacement) together. I first place the large ends together and compare the large diameters. If the replacement is the same or slightly smaller then reverse the cones so the small end touch. Almost simultaneously I look at both the end diameter and the curves. The overall lengths have less concerns but of course one must be able to engage the cone wrench with the cone in place. Only after this in hand visual check would/do I go to a caliper. Andy.
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Old 10-15-15, 10:52 AM
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Again thanks for the comments guys , the way W Mfg. lists their cones is first hub type , then by a picture of the cone then the axle size then the OD and the length . Here is the chart (click on the little pic to get dims.) Wheels Mfg Hub Cones . I first ordered R 040 and then R 036 as you can see by the chart both are 14.8 X 10.5 . Visually as you can see there is a difference one has the ring groove . And to tell you the truth I did not compare the 40 to the 36 , but obviously the difference is the location of the radius . The way I was thinking to measure was lay a rod the same dia. as the cone rad. and take measurements length wise and off the ID . But when the cones came in the mail (very quickly and free) I was excited to just assemble and see how they worked , they were perfect . So I thought take em' apart and measure or go get that ice cold one ?
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