How straight should a steel frame be?
 

I just bought a new All City frameset, and it looks really nice, but I notice the rear isn't exactly straight.

If I put the rear wheel on and push it all the way into the dropout, it doesn't sit straight and tilts to the side. The tire rubs on the chainstay a little near the bottom bracket.

Of course, I can make the wheel straight by adjusting it in the (track style) dropout, but shouldn't the wheel sit straight while just resting farthest inside the dropouts regardless?

Am I being OCD here?


Thanks,

Dino

With (near) horizontal dropouts allowing for easy adjustment, millimeter precision lengthwise becomes an optional extra, not a necessity.
If it bothers you, either take a rat tail file to the short slot, or put a dab of epoxy in the long slot.

Maybe that's why their frames come with built-in tensioners LOL

Yes

Without photos I may be reading it wrong, but what is the wheel spindle diameter in comparison to the drop-out slot, there is normally a bit of slack there, so if you have .5 mm with 27" wheel etc, it makes a big difference.

The slot in a pressed steel drop out will tend to be more slack / loose than a forged drop out, its always good practice to have the bike dead upright (or upside down but vertical ) when setting up.

The principal behind the slots is to also allow proper chain tension on the top / power side: I stand to be corrected by more experienced forum members on this point, but that's how I have always understood it.

First question is how does the bike track? Second is about tire rub. describing the various alignment issues is a lengthy process and best dealt with when the bike and wheels are in front of the person. But one follows the logic path in the beginning with confirming that the wheels are properly straight, dished on center, have no axle bends and can be secured in place tightly enough to not shift under riding stresses. I don't know how many times we find out that the QR conical springs are not situated properly and interfere with the axle's fit in the drop out or that the QR lever isn't tight enough to resist some shifting around on hard pedaling.

Good timing as last night I decided to gather photos of doing various aligning processes and post them to my Flicker Site linked here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/731955...57663801226719 Some comments are included for each shot.

But to try to answer your question as to what's straight enough- the answer varies depending on who is asking and who is answering. Frame builders are traditionally reluctant to give actual numbers for straightness, twist, centering. Do a little archive work on the frame building forums and you'll see what I mean. large manufactures are equally hesitant to also state specs of alignment, preferring to let their dealerships do that consumer servicing stuff, holding discussions of what's good and what's a possible warranty. (And this is a big reason to have a dealership that sells and services your brand). A common but non descript answer is that the bike should track straight with no tire rubbing using the OEM wheels/tires when set up properly by a qualified mechanic. beyond that things get very gray very quickly.

As a hobby builder I strive for both visual centering of wheels as well as minimal amounts measured twist, off center/axial amounts and off planar amounts. The actual numbers have evolved over the years as my abilities, tooling and understanding have also grown. One thing I learned early on after getting a flat surface plate and height gages/dial indicators is that being able to discern a few thousandths of an inch doesn't mean that this info is actually important in every case. Also repeating this level of measuring isn't consistent if for no other reason in that the frame tubes are not straight or evenly round.

I'll tell a recent story to end with. I have a younger coworker (actually the service manager in the shop I wrench at) who is a mountain biker with a focus on downhill and "flow" riding. Like many of us lifers he has many bikes and will change the purpose of the bikes as he gets new ones and breaks old ones. He asked me to resize the rear triangle of one of his bikes to allow a certain single speed hub/wheel to be used. This is an easy and common aligning change when done on a steel frame, as was this bike. So I took the frame home and mounted it on my whipping post. the first thing I do in these jobs is determine what the frame is in the beginning so I placed my *** type tool on it and found that the rear triangle/drop outs were about 8mm off center WRT the main triangle. So the reducing down the rear end was mostly done on one side to also get the back end on center too. A little tweaking of the second side and regaining the drop outs to being parallel and I was done. maybe 15 minutes of effort. Next day I bring the frame back to work and hand it off to my coworker. He asked about how it went and I told him of the massive (IMO) amount of off center that the rear end had been and asked him if he ever noticed it during riding or wrenching on the bike. He had never noticed this miss alignment. After he built up the bike and rode it in the new configuration and said he doesn't notice any real difference. Andy.

The bike has track ends, not drop outs.

The alignment of the wheel when it's pushed all the way in is irrelevant because that it not where the wheel sits when you're actually using it. .

Precise Alignment tables and Tools to go on it is in the Kilo dollars ,
I doubt even the shop that made the frame you got has one of those

Pro High end builders do, But you didnt get one of those ..

an example: https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3875/1...e52dc52b_b.jpg

You can do the simple string test

tie the strings' ends in the dropouts, & loop it around the head tube , pull it taught.

and test-measure the distances between the string and the seat tube on both sides and compare the numbers.

Likelihood is that frame is built by one of the largest manufacturers of steel bike frames in the world (Maxway). I bet they have one. Whether they use it or not...

Drop outs are the frame part that holds the axles. They can be horizontally slotted like track bikes use, angled/vertically slotted as road bikes typically have, or shaped for through axles. But they are always called drop outs by those who work with them.

As already mentioned we can't assume what is really going on without photos and or in person ability to assess. The OP might be referring to the wheel sitting closer to a seat stay when he says "it doesn't sit straight and tilts to the side". We just don't know yet. Andy.

And the string test (or using the Park Frame Alignment Gage tool or like) only checks for the centering of the rear triangle WRT the main frame. Not whether the rear axle is square to the seat tube and head tube. Like I tried to suggest there is a lot more going on with alignment that most will talk about. Any one aspect is good knowledge but not the complete picture by it's self. Andy.

Is that Ted W in the shot? Andy (who has had the fortune to find out how nice a guy Ted is)

Whether it is a frame alignment gauge or a manufacturer of ball bearings, the site censor is wrong to marginalize someone for their sexual preference, or even an acronym that suggests sexual preference.

No need for pedantry; the meaning is clear whether they're called "track ends" or "dropouts."

FYI, when a framebuilder purchases components for a frame, we almost always find "track ends," horizontal road ends, vertical frame ends, and fork ends in a single category called "dropouts."

Ok message heard, but for the record I was not trying to be a jerk, but rather trying to clarify things because I suspect that for many people the meaning wasn't actually clear. Hell, even Sheldon Brown might insist that track fork ends aren't drop outs.

So the question remains- what is OP to do? If the wheel sits straight in two parallel fork ends when the wheel is properly placed (not pushed towards the front), is there any reason for concern beyond that? As it's a brand-new frame you could also try talking to the manufacturer or the retailer where you bought it.

The Op first needs to better define what is really the situation. That they are asking without much explanation suggests that he is not the person to do a full assessment. This assessment is best done by a uninvolved third party, no motivation to spin the findings one way or another. Then judgments can me made by the OP. Whether the findings warrant further efforts to correct or will the understanding alone solve the OP's concerns.

If further efforts are decided then there's the choice to have a third party do corrective measures, what these might actually be and how much correction might be had compared to what might be "lost" in the efforts or to go back to the dealer and seek redress from them. (We don't yet know how this frame was bought or from who). But as I mentioned "acceptable straightness" means different things to different people.

So until more detail is known the OP really can't do much more then talk about things here, which is still lacking in info. Andy.

OP's question was completely answered in post number 2 despite the flurry of useless and often incorrect information that came after it.

Long story short: with forward facing horizontal dropouts or rear facing track ends, YOU must be the one to set the wheel in the correct position. Only with a vertical dropout do you slam it in all the way and expect that it's straight.

Bring it to a shop. Ask them to throw the FAG on it to check alignment. No, really...

Builders often don't focus on the exact position of track dropouts because it's a given that the wheel will sit somewhere mid slot depending on chain length, and the user will have to center it himself. Builders do have to take care that the dropouts are dead parallel (vis a vis the slots), and at the same height so the wheel sits vertical.

Of course, some builders may be more or less OCD about getting the dropout positions such that the wheel is square when pushed in all the way, but it's not a critical element. In any case, on all of the track frames I've ever used, it was impossible to push the wheel to the front end of the slot, so I have no idea how perfect or imperfect any of my track bikes have been in this respect, and it's never mattered.

Good posts...

I flipped the wheel around and it's still crooked, so it's not dish. Also just used the string method mentioned above, and it's off by about 5 mm. I don't know if that's such a good thing.

Here's some pics:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=503844http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=503845

One shows the crooked-ness. The other shows how the wheel is resting (nuts undone; tensioners backed off; gravity holding wheel inside edge of track end).

Of course Max way TW containerizes the whole batch and then it's shipped across the sea,
and so the shipping and trucking can Knock it about.

If the "string test" shows the frame to be reasonably straight (within a couple millimeters for a production frame; less than that for custom), and he has horizontal dropouts o some kind (either forward-facing road or rear-facing track), simply position the wheel in the slot so that it is centered between the stays and ride on. With vertical dropouts there's not much you can do but complain to the manufacturer.

I did the string test. It's off by 5mm or so. Starting to get bummed...

Don't get bummed. If you took the string test measurements at the seat tube, they double the error so your rear triangle is only off by 2.5mm (if it is). Take a look and measure the seatstay clearance on both sides, being sure that the axle is against the upper surface of the dropout (mount the wheel on the floor). If seatstay clearance matches you're inn decent shape.

If you want, and if it helps you to feel better (or decide to return the frame) carefully measure both chainstays from end of the slot to a good reference on the BB. If they differ, it explains why the wheel isn't centered. OTOH - if the chainstays are the same length, it argues for the triangle to be offset to one side.

Assuming you find nothing critical and keep the frame, the next step is to build it. Odds are it'll ride fine, so it's just a matter of trying to forget about all the "defects".

BTW - actually riding right trumps all else, and I don't believe in measuring to look for issues until they manifest on the road.

D/O adjusters will take care of the tire rub so your only real concern is how well the bikes tracks.

Of course, the only way to know that is to build it up...