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Bottom Bracket - English or Italian

Old 04-25-16, 10:51 AM
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rpiretti
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Bottom Bracket - English or Italian

Hey folks, I have a 93 Bianchi frame that I am trying to determine if it is Italian or English bottom bracket. Now I know what you're thinking, Italian! But..

The BB shell measures 68mm wide
Also, not sure on threading, but the threads appear to be as if you had a BB on, the BB would tighten in the same direction - towards the stays on both sides.

What do you think, English or Italian BB?

Thanks for any replies and apologize if this is a repeat post, just couldn't find anything in this circumstance.

Robert
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Old 04-25-16, 11:09 AM
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By 1993 it's likely Bianchi had gone to English threaded bottom brackets and the 68 mm shell width supports that. If the drive side threads are left handed that removes all doubt. Can you get or borrow an English NDS cup? If it threads in properly, the bb is English since Italian threads would be larger in diameter and the fit would be very sloppy.
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Old 04-25-16, 11:12 AM
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If you don't have any old BB cups to experiment with take the frame into your LBS; they should be able to check it for you at no charge...
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Old 04-25-16, 11:18 AM
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Sounds like there are no cups in it now since you can see the threads. You can see/feel if the spiral is clockwise. or counter-clockwise.
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Old 04-25-16, 11:30 AM
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By 93 Bianchi was using English BBs for some American exports with non Campy components. If the frame is Asian made, it is more likely to have an English BB.
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Old 04-25-16, 01:24 PM
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Thanks everyone, I'll probably confirm with the LBS with a spare English BB I have laying around on another build. Didn't even think of that. It does sound like it is indeed English though, thanks again.
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Old 04-25-16, 02:03 PM
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The 68 mm BB width confirms that it English.
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Old 04-25-16, 02:16 PM
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By 93 Bianchi USA was using Pac Rim Suppliers , no longer importing from Italy.

BSC Fixed cup LH Thread. adjustable RH thread
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Old 04-25-16, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
The 68 mm BB width confirms that it English.
Not necessarily. It could have been faced down to 68mm.
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Old 04-25-16, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bezalel View Post
Not necessarily. It could have been faced down to 68mm.
Possible? Yes. Probable? No. If the shell is really Italian threaded facing it to 68 mm would make fitting an Italian bottom bracket difficult to impossible.
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Old 04-25-16, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
The 68 mm BB width confirms that it English.
It doesn't "prove" that it's English thread, but given that Bianchi had frames made in Japan as well as Italy, and the Japanese-made frames were English thread, it's likely the OP's frame is a Japanese Bianchi with English thread.

Originally Posted by Bezalel View Post
Not necessarily. It could have been faced down to 68mm.
Yes. And sometimes English thread bottom brackets get stripped, and then reamed and re-tapped to Italian thread. And some Italian track frames actually had 65mm wide shells with Italian thread. Shell width at best is only a suggestion of what the shell thread might be.

Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Possible? Yes. Probable? No. If the shell is really Italian threaded facing it to 68 mm would make fitting an Italian bottom bracket difficult to impossible.
No. All it would require is using a spindle designed for a 68mm bottom bracket with Italian thread cups. Or, if you have a cartridge bottom bracket, simply letting the non-drive side extend further past the shell than might otherwise be the case.
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Old 04-25-16, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
It doesn't "prove" that it's English thread, but given that Bianchi had frames made in Japan as well as Italy, and the Japanese-made frames were English thread, it's likely the OP's frame is a Japanese Bianchi with English thread.



Yes. And sometimes English thread bottom brackets get stripped, and then reamed and re-tapped to Italian thread. And some Italian track frames actually had 65mm wide shells with Italian thread. Shell width at best is only a suggestion of what the shell thread might be.



No. All it would require is using a spindle designed for a 68mm bottom bracket with Italian thread cups. Or, if you have a cartridge bottom bracket, simply letting the non-drive side extend further past the shell than might otherwise be the case.
All of these possibilities do exist but, as I said above, I think any and all are highly improbable. What is most probable is the OP has an English threaded standard road width bottom bracket. Yes, you can make an Italian bottom bracket work in an English shell but, again, I'd bet a fair amount of money that isn't the case here.
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Old 04-25-16, 10:10 PM
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It might help if the OP @rpiretti were willing to share the frame model with us... some of the higher end 1993 Bianchis were still Italian, right?
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Old 04-25-16, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rpiretti View Post
....
Also, not sure on threading, but the threads appear to be as if you had a BB on, the BB would tighten in the same direction - towards the stays on both sides.
I don't know why we're speculating here. It can be hard to identify the thread when a BB is installed, but apparently this one isn't, and the OP nailed it himself. There threads are mirrored right/left, so it's either BSC or Swiss, and we can pretty much rule out Swiss.
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Old 04-26-16, 12:05 PM
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Indeed! Thanks

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I don't know why we're speculating here. It can be hard to identify the thread when a BB is installed, but apparently this one isn't, and the OP nailed it himself. There threads are mirrored right/left, so it's either BSC or Swiss, and we can pretty much rule out Swiss.
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Old 04-26-16, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I don't know why we're speculating here. It can be hard to identify the thread when a BB is installed, but apparently this one isn't, and the OP nailed it himself. There threads are mirrored right/left, so it's either BSC or Swiss, and we can pretty much rule out Swiss.
I've actually never seen a Swiss BB, and I was working on road bikes 40 years ago.
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Old 04-26-16, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexCyclistRoch View Post
I've actually never seen a Swiss BB, and I was working on road bikes 40 years ago.
They were out there, but in small numbers.

In a perfect example of committee & politically correct thinking, the ISO decided to impose metric standards, while retaining British mechanical thinking, and adopt the 35/1 R/L (Swiss) BB as the global standard. That didn't last long, and common sense overrode PC and they changed to the current (BSC/ISO) standard. However, I don't expect that to hold forever, and wouldn't be at all surprised if they revisited the issue.

In any case Swiss BB, aren't as rare as hens' teeth, but they are rare enough for me to rule it out for this Bianchi.
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Old 04-26-16, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
In a perfect example of committee & politically correct thinking, the ISO decided to impose metric standards, while retaining British mechanical thinking, and adopt the 35/1 R/L (Swiss) BB as the global standard. That didn't last long, and common sense overrode PC and they changed to the current (BSC/ISO) standard. However, I don't expect that to hold forever, and wouldn't be at all surprised if they revisited the issue.
Given the number and variety of bottom bracket "standards" currently on the market, I think the ISO is way too little, way to late to try to impose any universal standard by now. Maybe, just maybe the T47 threaded design will become the defacto standard in the future as it allows both 24 and 30 mm spindles and avoids the tolerance and noise issues with the various press fit designs.
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Old 04-26-16, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Given the number and variety of bottom bracket "standards" currently on the market, I think the ISO is way too little, way to late to try to impose any universal standard by now.....
Actually they did a decent job, once they adopted the BSC standard. Unfortunately, these days nobody gives a damn about standards and introduce new and "improved" designs willy nilly. The entire concept of a bicycle assembled of standard and replaceable parts is out the window, and we're into a new era of use it as for a few years (if that long) and replace with new.

The bicycle industry has segued it's way from the old concept of the serviceable for years durable goods model, to the don't bother fixing because its obsolete anyway model of the electronics world. In this world, "standards" are a short term handshake agreement between players working together.
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Old 04-26-16, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
The entire concept of a bicycle assembled of standard and replaceable parts is out the window, and we're into a new era of use it as for a few years (if that long) and replace with new.

The bicycle industry has segued it's way from the old concept of the serviceable for years durable goods model, to the don't bother fixing because its obsolete anyway model of the electronics world.
Well, it's hard to keep a manufacturing industry profitable by making products that last a long time and never become obsolete. The bicycle industry is by no means unusual in this regard.
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Old 04-26-16, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Well, it's hard to keep a manufacturing industry profitable by making products that last a long time and never become obsolete. The bicycle industry is by no means unusual in this regard.
While never is a long time, a great number of industries succeed by making long lived durable products. They may try to entice new sales by encouraging people to upgrade, but don't impose this by making stuff that is hard to service after a short time frame.

If we look at bicycles alone, there was no problem getting folks to buy new bikes back when standards were in place, and you could maintain or upgrade a bike for 10-20 years or more. While that is still possible to a degree, it's far more difficult, ans as I said bikes have segued from the durable to consumable categories and is headed to the disposable.

(Yes, I know that sounds like a retro grouch rant, but I'm not really opposed to change or "improvements" as long as older stuff isn't orphaned for at least 5 years, or longer)
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Old 04-26-16, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
While never is a long time, a great number of industries succeed by making long lived durable products. They may try to entice new sales by encouraging people to upgrade, but don't impose this by making stuff that is hard to service after a short time frame.

If we look at bicycles alone, there was no problem getting folks to buy new bikes back when standards were in place, and you could maintain or upgrade a bike for 10-20 years or more. While that is still possible to a degree, it's far more difficult, ans as I said bikes have segued from the durable to consumable categories and is headed to the disposable.

(Yes, I know that sounds like a retro grouch rant, but I'm not really opposed to change or "improvements" as long as older stuff isn't orphaned for at least 5 years, or longer)
I agree. In today's bicycle market "the latest and greatest" doesn't stay latest or greatest for long and if you insist on staying on the leading edge of "progress", your current bike is going to be obsolete pretty quick. That said, it's not difficult to keep an older bike in components at least as good or better than it came with. It won't be "current" but it will certainly be good and useful.

I have a 20 year old Litespeed with over 75,000 miles that's been upgraded numerous times over the years, generally as parts wore out and were replaced with newer and often better ones. It started out with 8-speed 105 STI stuff and is now up to a 10-speed mix of current 105 and Ultegra and I could easily "upgrade" it to 11-speed if I wanted to. Yes, it has a few items that are getting difficult to find, like good 1" steerer forks and headsets but there is no reason it can't last another 20 years, even if I don't. It will never be the latest sub-15 pound carbon wonder bike but it wasn't when it was new either and it will still be on the road when they've been replaced.
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Old 04-26-16, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
While never is a long time, a great number of industries succeed by making long lived durable products. They may try to entice new sales by encouraging people to upgrade, but don't impose this by making stuff that is hard to service after a short time frame.

If we look at bicycles alone, there was no problem getting folks to buy new bikes back when standards were in place, and you could maintain or upgrade a bike for 10-20 years or more. While that is still possible to a degree, it's far more difficult, ans as I said bikes have segued from the durable to consumable categories and is headed to the disposable.

(Yes, I know that sounds like a retro grouch rant, but I'm not really opposed to change or "improvements" as long as older stuff isn't orphaned for at least 5 years, or longer)
Even back in the day (1980s) a LOT of stuff came out and disappeared after only a few years. Dhimano AX groupsets, Shimano Sante groupset to name just two.

I upgraded a bike in 2001 and put a mix of 9-speed Mirage and Veloce stuff on it. Now it's very hard to get those Ergo levers.

I was luck and came across a bicycle shop in the country that had a LOT of NOS stuff being sold at bargain basement prices. Now I have a bunch of extra brake shoes for my Dura ACe AX brake calipers, NOS Uniglide cassettes, 600EX gum rubber hoods, cleats for the Dyba Drive AX pedals/105 & 600 triangular pedals plus bottom brackets. My OLD bikes can be running well after I'm dead and gone.

Seems like there has been a long history of short-lived "Experimental" bicycle components that faded out after only a few years.

I saw a complete Sachs Huret groupset NOS still in the original BIG box the smaller boxes fit into. Actually there were two groupsets. One was road the other was MTB and they were only about $250.00 each. I thought they'd be fantastic if I had a decent French frame I wanted to rebuild.

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Old 04-27-16, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Even back in the day (1980s) a LOT of stuff came out and disappeared after only a few years. Dhimano AX groupsets, Shimano Sante groupset to name just two.
Many disappeared for good reason, either they didn't work well or didn't appeal to the buying public. Campy's first two attempts at index shifting (Synchro and Synchro II) had short lifetimes since they worked poorly and couldn't compete functionally with Shimano's groups. It wasn't until the first generation of Ergo brifters they got it right.
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