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Shimano 11-speed, noisy in smallest rear cog, only....

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Shimano 11-speed, noisy in smallest rear cog, only....

Old 05-17-16, 07:30 AM
  #1  
dsevern
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Shimano 11-speed, noisy in smallest rear cog, only....

My cross bike has the following setup:
Ultegra CX Crankset, 105 shifters, Dura Ace FD, Ultegra RD, 105 Cassette(11-28), Ultegra chain.
It shifts fine and is perfect in every other gear except the smallest cog in the rear, regardless of which front chainring.

I've tried adjusting the limit screw I can't get it to be as quiet as any of the other gear combinations. Also played with cable tension, even though that really shouldn't come in to play in the smallest cog, but I'm grasping at straws here.

The chain only shows a slight bit of stretch according to my gauge... no where near ready for replacement.

I've cleaned the entire drivetrain and relubed and still the same issue. Removed cassette and verified there was nothing in between the cogs and re-assembled and torqued to spec. Still there.

I'm out of ideas. Anyone?

Thanks in advance
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Old 05-17-16, 07:36 AM
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Fred Smedley
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Originally Posted by dsevern View Post
My cross bike has the following setup:
Ultegra CX Crankset, 105 shifters, Dura Ace FD, Ultegra RD, 105 Cassette(11-28), Ultegra chain.
It shifts fine and is perfect in every other gear except the smallest cog in the rear, regardless of which front chainring.

I've tried adjusting the limit screw I can't get it to be as quiet as any of the other gear combinations. Also played with cable tension, even though that really shouldn't come in to play in the smallest cog, but I'm grasping at straws here.

The chain only shows a slight bit of stretch according to my gauge... no where near ready for replacement.

I've cleaned the entire drivetrain and relubed and still the same issue. Removed cassette and verified there was nothing in between the cogs and re-assembled and torqued to spec. Still there.

I'm out of ideas. Anyone?

Thanks in advance
Did you adjust the H screw and is your B screw adjusted correctly ?
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Old 05-17-16, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Fred Smedley View Post
Did you adjust the H screw and is your B screw adjusted correctly ?
B screw is adjust correctly, yes.

"H screw" = limit screw. Yes, as I said, I tried adjusting the limit screw. I've got it set at the point where it is the quietest, but it's still much more noisy than any of the other cogs, regardless of front chainring.
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Old 05-17-16, 07:59 AM
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might be a feature .. only 11 teeth means everything is concentrated on 5~6 teeth
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Old 05-17-16, 08:25 AM
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dsevern
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
might be a feature .. only 11 teeth means everything is concentrated on 5~6 teeth
Uh... No.
That would imply it's been this way since it was built, which it hasn't. This has only recently started happening and I can't correlate it back to any riding issues; ie, mud, sand, etc. I've actually only been riding it on roads/hardpack for the last few months.

Though that isn't to say that that particular cog couldn't be worn... although I don't typically spend much time in that gear, so I'd find that a bit hard to accept.

I haven't checked, but I doubt you can order just that specific cog for a 105 level cassette.

Next.
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Old 05-17-16, 08:40 AM
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generally the steel is all the same , 105 has shiny plating on the cogs to be pretty.
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Old 05-17-16, 09:01 AM
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Have you checked the cable for any type of damage? If it's got a kink or broken strand/strands it may prevent the derailleur from moving all the way over but won't affect the other gears. Pretty sure you can just buy an 11t cog for 105 but if not Ultegra or DA will work and not too expensive. Compared to your larger cogs 11t don't last long if used a lot.
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Old 05-17-16, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
Have you checked the cable for any type of damage? If it's got a kink or broken strand/strands it may prevent the derailleur from moving all the way over but won't affect the other gears. Pretty sure you can just buy an 11t cog for 105 but if not Ultegra or DA will work and not too expensive. Compared to your larger cogs 11t don't last long if used a lot.
The cable looks fine... it's internal cable routing so I can't say 100%, but it looks fine on the parts I can see.
And I'm fairly sure it's releasing enough of the cable tension to sit in the correct spot because when adjusting the H limit screw I am able to get the chain to move too far outward (as in it would drop off the cog, if I went that far) and I can get it to move inward to where it will jump to the next cog. But when the H limit screw is set in the "best" spot, it's still not anywhere near as quiet as the rest of the cogs.

Yea... I'm starting to think maybe it might be a worn cog. I do have 2 other Ultegra 11-28's on my other 2 race wheelsets. I could pull an 11t off one of those and try it and see if that resolves the issue. The bike came with this 105 and I just use it on my training wheelset.
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Old 05-17-16, 10:06 AM
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Since you have other 11T cassettes I expect you know better but, any chance you have the wrong lockring installed? An 11T lockring is smaller in diameter from those supplied with 12+ small cog cassettes.
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Old 05-17-16, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Since you have other 11T cassettes I expect you know better but, any chance you have the wrong lockring installed? An 11T lockring is smaller in diameter from those supplied with 12+ small cog cassettes.
Nope. Lockring is clearly labeled 105 and it's the one that came with that cassette. I'm pretty sure that's the only 105 cassette I even have in my "inventory".
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Old 05-17-16, 10:49 AM
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When I have noise when the chain is on the smallest cog and everywhere else it's fine, I start playing around with the high limit screw, first trying to determine if it gets noisier or quieter by turning it one way or the other. If I can determine that adjusting in one direction quietens it, I can usually play around with the limit screw adjustment to make the noise go completely away.
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Old 05-17-16, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dsevern View Post
Nope. Lockring is clearly labeled 105 and it's the one that came with that cassette. I'm pretty sure that's the only 105 cassette I even have in my "inventory".
I think that they are also clearly marked "11T"; it only takes a second to check.
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Old 05-17-16, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
I think that they are also clearly marked "11T"; it only takes a second to check.
I don't see "11t" marked anywhere on the lockring, but I am 100% certain this is the lockring that came with this cassette when I bought the bike.

You can also see the 1st cog is marked 11T.

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Old 05-17-16, 11:18 AM
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Looking at that photo it appears that the lock ring is overhanging the valleys of the cog; the chain plates come even further inwards and will hit the ring; there is no way the teeth can fully engage the chain.

Checking this page, all of the 11T lock rings seem to be marked as such: Cassette Spares - Shimano products from SJS Cycles I think you have the wrong ring.
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Old 05-17-16, 11:22 AM
  #15  
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FWIW, 5800 lockrings for cassettes with an 11t cog are not marked as 11t on the lockring.
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Old 05-17-16, 12:47 PM
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dsevern
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If it's the wrong lockring, then it came wrong from the factory... which I would kind doubt.

However, when I re-examined the picture to see what you were talking about it terms of "overhang", what I think it might be is the lockring washer... which have a tendency to get pinched out from under the lockring after a few times of being torqued on.

I'll try pulling the washer and let you know how that works. If that doesn't solve it, I'll swap an 11T cog from one of my Ultegra cassettes and see.
I'll update with the results.
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Old 05-17-16, 12:50 PM
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dsevern
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Also, on the page you mentioned, here is a the link to the exact lock ring I have and the picture doesn't show any "11T" marking....
Shimano 105 CS-5800 Lockring & Spacer Y1PJ98010 - 7.99
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Old 05-17-16, 12:57 PM
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Lockring washer?
Take that off and put on before the cassette. No?
Here is a pick of CS5800 11 speed with 11t small:
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Old 05-17-16, 01:20 PM
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No. The lockring washer is a VERY thin metal washer that goes on the lockring itself.

Are you thinking of a "cassette spacer"? That's what goes BEHIND the cassette on the freewheel body... but this is an 11-speed freehub and an 11-speed cassette so it's not required (and shouldn't be used, in this case).

I've taken it off altogether on some cassettes when it gets pinched out, like it's looking like it has on this one.
I'll also try that.
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Old 05-17-16, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Looking at that photo it appears that the lock ring is overhanging the valleys of the cog;
Agreed. Or at least the washer is. I've never seen one of the washers squished outward like that and this may be the problem. The chain is not supposed to come in contact with the washer at all.
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Old 05-17-16, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
Agreed. Or at least the washer is. I've never seen one of the washers squished outward like that and this may be the problem. The chain is not supposed to come in contact with the washer at all.
Bingo!!!

Thanks for everyone that chimed in with suggestions and thanks for the extra set of eyes that helped me spot the lockring washer sticking out.

I put my ultegra cassette on and it was quiet and smooth in all gears so I removed the lockring washer from the lockring on the 105 cassette and re-installed the 105 cassette as it was before (only without the lockring washer) and it sounds exactly the same in all the cogs.

Thanks again!!!!
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Old 05-17-16, 07:50 PM
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The lockring or washer (whatever was sticking out) even shows wear from the chain side plates.
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