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Modern Wheels on Horizontal Dropouts

Old 07-08-16, 12:56 PM
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Ranger63
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Modern Wheels on Horizontal Dropouts

I painfully (62 miles of a rear wheel which refused to stay centered in the dropouts)discovered modern wheelsets (used in vertical dropout applications) don't seem to come with the knurled nuts on either side of the hub. Without em, the wheel simply cannot be locked into horizontal dropout applications.
Anyone know of modern (ala 24/20 spoke) wheelsets that come with the knurled nuts on em?
I gave hardware style star washers a try (hey...the dropouts paint was chewed off by then anyway)with very marginal success.
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Old 07-08-16, 01:01 PM
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I have had this problem. Dropout screws or moving the wheel to the very back of the dropout helps. Otherwise: close the quick release really really really hard.
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Old 07-08-16, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by yipyipyip View Post
Otherwise: close the quick release really really really hard.

+1


OP, what kind of hub do you have?
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Old 07-08-16, 01:18 PM
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I've had loys of modern hubs with steel toothed endcaps for the rear. Anything with chrome on the ends of the hub usually have steel toothed rings pressed onto the endcaps, for example Bitex hubs which I have used in horizontal dropouts with good skewers. The Shimano wheels with traditional cup and cone hubs also should have steel locknuts given their traditional construction.
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Old 07-08-16, 01:20 PM
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When vertical dropouts became the standard, quick releases also went to external cam. Horizontal dropouts work better with internal cams like DuraAce - try just changing skewers on your existing wheels.


Last edited by DiabloScott; 07-08-16 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 07-08-16, 02:06 PM
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Yep. A good internal cam QR will do the trick. Never had an issue with slippage using a Campy Centaur or Shimano Ultegra QR.
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Old 07-08-16, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by diabloscott View Post
when vertical dropouts became the standard, quick releases also went to external cam. Horizontal dropouts work better with internal cams like duraace - try just changing skewers on your existing wheels.

+1
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Old 07-08-16, 02:42 PM
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Axle lock nut ends need to have teeth (or raised ring with a sharp edge) themselves of Hardened steel.

thats how the older wheel hubs came.
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Old 07-08-16, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 2lo8 View Post
...I have used in horizontal dropouts with good skewers.
Good internal cam skewers properly tightened is the key IMO.
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Old 07-08-16, 03:29 PM
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As fietsbob said, the hubs themselves should have steel toothed surfaces. Skewers when used properly are only meant to provide clamping forces. Clamping forces you can get with a decent external cam skewer is you're willing to deal with having to use lots of force on the lever. It's the friction between the surfaces of the endcap/locknut and the dropout that should prevent the hub from moving.
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Old 07-08-16, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 2lo8
As fietsbob said, the hubs themselves should have steel toothed surfaces.
I've seen a lot of front hubs that didn't have the teeth - but most road rear hubs seem to have them...



Even modern ones:




Except for disk brake hubs.

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Old 07-08-16, 04:02 PM
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That's because front dropouts are verticalish and you don't pedal with front wheel on any bike that isn't ordinary.
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Old 07-08-16, 05:33 PM
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These are Ritchey OCR Pros that I snagged off my old CF Motobecane. That said: Two local LBS went thru every one of their upper end (24/20 etc)wheelsets and not one had the knurled nuts.
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Old 07-08-16, 05:37 PM
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As Tom Lonzi of Toms Pro Bike said: Rich; the newer wheels don't need the knurled nut because the dropouts from about the mid 90s on, were vertical. The folks at Campus Wheelworks showed me several new hubs with the knurled nut setups..all in 32 or 36 drillings.
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Old 07-08-16, 05:42 PM
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Looks like wheel building time..If the hubs are available (and the ones shown here appear to be) in 24/20 drillings with knurled nuts that's the way I'll have to go. Guess I'll run the old school 32 hole mavic Cx2s till I can put the parts together.
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Old 07-08-16, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ranger63 View Post
Looks like wheel building time..If the hubs are available (and the ones shown here appear to be) in 24/20 drillings with knurled nuts that's the way I'll have to go. Guess I'll run the old school 32 hole mavic Cx2s till I can put the parts together.
Or you could try a couple of internal-cam skewers and see if you still have a problem before going to the time and expense of a new wheelset.
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Old 07-09-16, 12:31 AM
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The first 'fix' I went for was an internal cam QR. and it was tightened so a impression was left on the palm when closing
I also tried substituting star washers for the missing knurled nuts
Dialed in the adjusting screws which I figured would provide a stop
First series of hard strokes from a stop and the wheel had moved. (I made up a spacer so it would be easy to check on the space between tire and chainstay.
I reinstalled the old school knurled nut Mavic Cxp 22s, took the bike out and did out of the saddle climbs on the bike...not a smidge of movement.
Apparently those nuts are just thick enough to provide a measure of equal tension on either side of the dropout.

Last edited by Ranger63; 07-09-16 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 07-10-16, 12:35 PM
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Hubs are ritchey Zeros
However; having had two high end LBS go thru their stock of modern (stuff from 2000 on) wheelsets, nothing they had that was compatible with the vertical dropout had the needed knurled nut and nothing they had in stock with the knurled nut came in less than 32 spoke setups.
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Old 07-10-16, 04:57 PM
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Shimano wheelset and Mavic wheelsets don't slip in my frame's horizontal dropouts, the Shimano is 24 spoke and the Mavic is 20 spoke.
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Old 07-11-16, 04:04 AM
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Re: Shimano and Mavic wheelsets.
If they don't have the knurled nuts on the hubs I'd say you lucked out.
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Old 07-11-16, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
Shimano wheelset and Mavic wheelsets don't slip in my frame's horizontal dropouts, the Shimano is 24 spoke and the Mavic is 20 spoke.
Perhaps you lack Ranger's
torque-producing power.
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Old 07-11-16, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger63 View Post
The first 'fix' I went for was an internal cam QR. and it was tightened so a impression was left on the palm when closing
How about trying tightening it with some real force? Forget the 'impression on the hand' approach. Have the skewer lever open 90 degrees and tighten the nut on the other side as much as you can by hand first. Now close the lever. Any improvement?
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Old 07-11-16, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger63 View Post
I painfully (62 miles of a rear wheel which refused to stay centered in the dropouts)discovered modern wheelsets (used in vertical dropout applications) don't seem to come with the knurled nuts on either side of the hub. Without em, the wheel simply cannot be locked into horizontal dropout applications.
Anyone know of modern (ala 24/20 spoke) wheelsets that come with the knurled nuts on em?
I gave hardware style star washers a try (hey...the dropouts paint was chewed off by then anyway)with very marginal success.
Few different things you can do, even without the knurling.

Surly monkey nuts.


Or any sort of horizontal dropout chain tensioner.
Surly Tugnuts

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/tuggnut


DMR Chain Tugs, 10mm - Pair in Tree Fort Bikes Axle/Chain Tensioner

These products are made to prevent rear wheels from slipping via mechanical means.

EDIT: Apologies for all of the surly content, honestly they were just the first thing that came up when I googled horizontal dropout chain tensioner. And they seem to be highly regarded on other SS forums.

Last edited by corrado33; 07-11-16 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 07-11-16, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger63 View Post
The first 'fix' I went for was an internal cam QR. and it was tightened so a impression was left on the palm when closing
I also tried substituting star washers for the missing knurled nuts
Dialed in the adjusting screws which I figured would provide a stop
First series of hard strokes from a stop and the wheel had moved. (I made up a spacer so it would be easy to check on the space between tire and chainstay.
I reinstalled the old school knurled nut Mavic Cxp 22s, took the bike out and did out of the saddle climbs on the bike...not a smidge of movement.
Apparently those nuts are just thick enough to provide a measure of equal tension on either side of the dropout.
I don't trust the results with the star washers -- did you try a test with the internal-cam skewer, but no star washers or spacers?
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There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
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Old 07-11-16, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by diabloscott View Post
when vertical dropouts became the standard, quick releases also went to external cam. Horizontal dropouts work better with internal cams like duraace - try just changing skewers on your existing wheels.

+ 1.
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