GravelMN

These seem to be the two dominant spoke preps on the market (not including boiled linseed oil). Has anyone used both and come up with a clear winner or pros and cons for each?

I've built a number of wheelsets over the years and have never used anything other than a dab of anti-seize on the spoke threads and have had no problems with wheels staying in tension and true.

Well, that is, until one wheel this year. The rear wheel on my road bike has developed a strange habit of having just one or two random NDS spokes completely detension over just a couple hundred miles. My first thought was rim cracks or eyelet pullout, but that should occur on the drive side and repeated careful inspection shows neither. Next thought was undertension as the nipples had actually backed off by what appears to be a couple to a few turns. My NDS spokes run 64-70 kgf. It has been several different spokes and once they are retensioned and trued, it seems to be a different spoke or pair of spokes each time. I've been marking the spokes that I've had this problem with and it appears random except that it is always on the NDS. Here are the build particulars:My plan is to completely detension the wheel and remove each nipple, clean the threads and apply some form of spoke prep, and then retension and true the wheel. This is why I want some feedback on the pros and cons of the readily available preps. If this solves the problem, I may have to go to using spoke prep instead of anti-seize (recommended by my wheel-building mentor) even though I've never had a problem like this before. The rest of my wheels have thousands of miles on them and have never needed more than a rare slight tweeking to stay very true.

I read once that using a thinner spoke on the NDS somehow created a better balance of tensions in a dished wheel, but can't remember where I read it nor am I sure of the validity of this advice. Is it true and if so, how does it work?

fietsbob

Not a particular Brand, neither of those, I've used anti-sieze, myself.

Function is so the Nip turns and the spoke stays and wont Wind Up,

and later unwind and thereby de tension.

GravelMN

Thanks Fiestbob. Any thoughts on why this is happening to this wheel? It's getting to be a real PITA. I trued and checked the tension yesterday. Went on a 50-mile ride today and found a crossing pair of NDS spokes had loosened significantly. I have two other spokes that are already marked from previous episodes of the same issue and they were both still in proper tension and not immediately adjacent to the new problem spokes. One of the previous spokes is actually about 1/3 of the way around the wheel from the ones that just came loose.

BTW, this wheel has about 3,000 miles on it with no issues during the last two seasons.

Tunnelrat81

One of my first wheelset builds was ordered as a build kit, and came with all of the spokes pre-dipped in what I believe was wheelsmith product. It was on so thick that I was unable to thread the nipples in place and I ended up cleaning all of the threads off and using oil instead. Never had trouble with those wheels. Some time ago, I was turned on to Locktite 222 (Purple) which is for very small fasteners (very low strength), and will supposedly re-bind a few times for adjustment if needed. I've been using that for a few years, and again, have had no issues with it.

In a few cases when friends bring in wheels that have problem spokes, I will remove nipples, clean spoke thread and apply the locktite to the NDS spokes, all around. It's worth a try, and as long as the product you use has a bit of holding strength, it will likely solve your problem.

-Jeremy

mtnbke

Linseed Oil

Many pro wheel builders don't use anything else for a reason.

GravelMN

Thank you for your input, but there are also pros that use anti-seize, bees wax or some form of spoke prep, and all have their reasons. I'm looking for a comparison of the various spoke preps and their effectiveness in preventing detensioning of relatively low tension NDS spokes. Have you used anything other than linseed oil and how did they compare?

I also noted that DT Swiss makes nipples with a pre-applied spoke prep that supposedly allows for several truing/tensionings before losing effectiveness.

As I mentioned, I have used nothing but anti-seize in the past and have had no problems, but this one wheel has developed an issue, so any insights on why this wheel is different and developed a problem in its third season of use would be welcome.

joejack951

Thinner spokes will stretch more for a given tension. When the rim deforms at the tire's contact patch, those spokes will lose less tension than a thicker, lesser stretched spoke would. So for NDS spokes that sometimes will only see half of the DS spokes' tension, a thinner spoke can avoid a situation where those spokes go completely slack and lose tension over time, or eventually fatigue and break.

In your case, you have decent tension on those NDS spokes already (presumably NOT an 11 speed rear hub, or using an offset rim or both) so my next step would be brand new nipples (maybe you got a bad batch with poorly formed threads) and some light duty threadlocker. I've never had to resort to that and always just used anti-seize on spokes but I haven't built as many wheels as some guys here.

mtnbke

Many people swear by different things. You only need to start discussing chain lubes, and see how many people use a lube that is not suited for their weather, or road conditions (dirt/grime) to understand the value of opinions.

The benefit of linseed oil is that is not a caustic manufactured chemical (keep cycling green, or greener). It also allows an almost ideal hold preventing nipples from turning, while allowing repeated truings/tensionings.

However, a properly built wheel doesn't require repeated truings/tensionings. I'm wondering if you've actually ever built a wheel before? Its a great aspect of wrenching on bikes. An art as much as a science. There is a huge difference between someone like Peter White or the folks at Velocity, or Wheelbuilder.com and everyone else. Every shop used to claim they had a Master Wheelbuilder, or a wrench that is their custom wheel builder. In reality most of those hacks couldn't build a proper outlier wheel if you offered them $1000. By this I mean a tandem wheel set for a 625lb Clydesdale team (ex NFL player and stoker partner), or an ultra lightweight racing wheel set that is as light as can possibly be built but will "stand" for a racing season for a UCI Div I roadie that is a 5'4" climbing specialist, trying to punch their ticket into the European peloton. Anyone can build a wheel for a 170lb average cyclist. Like frame builders, most "MASTER" builders just aren't.

I like Linseed oil. I know many wheel builders that do as well. YMMV.

mtnbke

Actually that's a complete misnomer the notion about thinner spokes. Many a wheel builder gets caught up in that, and confuses the ideal spoke selection and tension for thinking thinner is best.

Its about about appropriate. A wheel is dynamic and nothing will destroy a shell faster than a wheel being tensioned and detensioned every revolution. The important thing its to use the APPROPRIATE gauge spoke for the cyclist and context, and riding style. It isn't a one size fits all kind of concept.

The idea that a thinner spoke is a better spoke selection for say a Clydesdale 6'7" cyclist hammering on the wheel using massive 210mm cranks putting down incredible wattage is just nonsense. Its about the appropriate spoke, not just some rule of thinner being better. Its a balancing act. The rim is a critical factor as well. You don't want to overspoke to compensate for not having enough rim. For a heavier cyclists or a heavy tandem team you'll pull spokes through the rim after limited mileage if you let them talk you into too light a rim. The proper tension needed to support that tandem team will overwhelm a lightweight rim even on perfectly smooth manicured spokes.

Its a balancing act of the APPROPRIATE spoke (not just a thinner spoke), proper rim for context, and proper tension. Otherwise that thinner spoke is just going to break off at the head from all that tensioning/detensioning from an improperly built or ill-suited wheel for the application.

fietsbob

I use a bit of extra Work to let wound up spokes un wind
then put it back in the truing stand and re check the wheel again,
do that a couple times until it seems not to change.

Andy_K 

I've used Wheelsmith Spoke Prep, but I have mixed feelings about it. It's a bit of a mess to work with and if you have to unlace a wheel for whatever reason it seems to strip off a lot of the stuff and leave a gritty mess. I'm an amateur builder and haven't built enough wheels with and without the Spoke Prep to say how much difference it makes.

GravelMN

Not knocking linseed oil at all, just looking for a comparison if it is available. Didn't realize that Spoke Prep and Nipple Cream were caustic. Where did you find that information? Seems odd that a manufacturer would use a caustic substance where there is contact between dissimilar metals. "Caustic" refers to the corrosive properties, usually of alkalines and their potential to damage metals or living tissue.

BTW, I'm no master wheelbuilder by any means but this is the sixth wheelset that I have built and I have been doing my own wheel maintenance including replacing rims and spokes for several years. This is the first wheel that I have ever had any problem with and the problem didn't show up until the wheel's third season in use. All of my other wheels stay in good true and tension and have received only occasional minor tweeks whenever I service the hubs, more due to my OCD tendencies than because they were significantly out of true.

I'm learning and claim no more, but I have built some wheels that have held up very nicely and continue to do so. I'm not sure why this is happening to this particular wheel, but if you have any suggestions, I'll gladly take them into consideration.

JohnDThompson 

I've always used boiled linseed oil and never had a problem, so I'm not sure how I'd recognize an improvement over "no problems." And you can buy a lifetime supply of linseed oil for a fraction of the cost of a tiny container of brand-name spoke prep.

joejack951

The rest of your post does nothing to support to this statement. The right rims, the right number of spokes, the right tension, sure, tune that to the rider(s). Unless your 6'7" dude or tandem team is snapping spokes due to passing their yield stress (a number far higher than the fatigue stress) a double butted is going to be just fine. And if pros aren't snapping those little spokes, no one is.

davidad

I use Loctite 567 pipe thread sealant. Never had a problem tweaking a wheel years later.

GravelMN

Thanks John. Agreed that there is not much improvement that can be made on "no problem" and linseed oil may be where I go with this. My main concerns are: Ease of proper application, performance (how well does it prevent the spoke from loosening), longevity (does it dry out, wash out, fail after x# years?), and ease of future adjustments.

Linseed oil sounds like it does a fine job for many people, I just wanted to see what pros and cons there are for each product.

JohnDThompson 

What I do is put a little linseed oil in a dish and then put all the nipples in with the oil. Lace up the wheel, wipe off any excess oil and I'm done (do take care to handle the oily rag properly; linseed oil generates heat as it hardens, and spontaneous combustion is possible if your oily rag is improperly stored). It does dry out, but that's how it works. It lubricates the threads as you're building the wheel, and over a couple days will harden into a varnish that locks the nipples in place. I haven't noticed that it fails after any arbitrary time. It's not such a firm lock that a spoke wrench won't break it free, and you can just put a drop of oil on the nipple when your done truing to lock it up again.

2lo8

How terrifying

JohnDThompson 

I just hang the rag on the clothsline outside until it's finished hardening, then put it in the trash. What you don't want to do is crumple it up and toss it in a corner, but that holds true with any oily rag.

wschruba

You have to really try. Like, pile of rags several inches deep, try.

GravelMN

Update:

I considered the options and with no clear advantage of one over the other, I ordered some Rock N Roll Nipple Cream and rebuilt the problem wheel with new nipples (just to save the time of cleaning and drying the old ones which I saved and soaked in mineral spirits to remove any traces of the anti-seize). I cleaned each spoke end with mineral spirits and rebuilt the wheel to 115 kgf on the DS which came out to about 74 kgf NDS. I talked to a couple of wheelbuilders and company reps and this was about the max they recommended for my hub, spoke, rim combo. A few of those I spoke with suggested that the anti-seize probably works fine at higher tensions but could be part of the problem on the low tension side.

Well, the wheel is trued and tensioned and was taken for a quick spin this afternoon. Tomorrow I'll take it on a 50+ mile hill ride known for some rough roads. We'll see if the problem is solved within a few weeks.

I know the Nipple Cream is way more expensive ounce per ounce than the linseed oil, but even at $12 for a one-ounce bottle, when I only build about a wheelset a year, this will last me a decade.

easyupbug 

I have seen a single rag in a trash can that started smoldering, generating smoke and nasty smell which caught our attention. A single rag is all it takes.