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9 speed Tiagra shifters on 8 speed XT derailleur?

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9 speed Tiagra shifters on 8 speed XT derailleur?

Old 08-18-16, 10:24 PM
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Bikedued
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9 speed Tiagra shifters on 8 speed XT derailleur?

I know 7 and 8 are pretty compatible, done it several times. But.... I am building a drop bar mountain bike, and it's an 8 speed Gary Fisher X Caliber. I am using a Gary Bar, and was thinking about bar end shifters. However, I do have a set of 2012ish Tiagra 3x9 speed brifters. I don't think I've ever tried this, but I was wondering if anyone else has. I don't know the 9 to 8 speed compatibility rules. Is the cable pull the same?,,,,BD


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Old 08-18-16, 10:43 PM
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I guess I could just mock it up and see. I noticed there is a .3mm difference in cable pull, though the derailleur ratio is the same. It might chatter a little, or it may actually work.,,,,BD
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Old 08-18-16, 11:18 PM
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Just shell out for a 9 speed cassette and chain
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Old 08-19-16, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by headasunder View Post
Just shell out for a 9 speed cassette and chain
+1 It certainly won't work with the 8 speed cassette
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Old 08-19-16, 06:05 AM
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It can work with alternate cable routing. And setting the shifer so that the 8th (fastest) speed on the cassette is the 8th speed on the shifter, while the 9th would be an unused one - click the shifter, and the RD stays locked by the limit screw, won't move.

I wrote this article on compatibility, it has the pic of the alternate routing from Sheldon Brown's site and it works OK. Not perfect in all the gears, but acceptable.

7) Compatibility - rear shifters - Cycle Gremlin

Or you could put a 9 speed cassette and chain.
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Old 08-19-16, 06:05 AM
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I'll echo what others have said. The rear derailleur will probably work fine (I for example, run a 9 speed RD with 10 speed brifters), but you will need a 9 speed cassette and chain, as the cog pitch is different on 9 speed to 8 speed, so it won't index an 8-speed cassette correctly.
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Old 08-19-16, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
It can work with alternate cable routing. And setting the shifer so that the 8th (fastest) speed on the cassette is the 8th speed on the shifter, while the 9th would be an unused one - click the shifter, and the RD stays locked by the limit screw, won't move.

I wrote this article on compatibility, it has the pic of the alternate routing from Sheldon Brown's site and it works OK. Not perfect in all the gears, but acceptable.

7) Compatibility - rear shifters - Cycle Gremlin
Right good point, I forgot about that trick.
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Old 08-19-16, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
I'll echo what others have said. The rear derailleur will probably work fine (I for example, run a 9 speed RD with 10 speed brifters), but you will need a 9 speed cassette and chain, as the cog pitch is different on 9 speed to 8 speed, so it won't index an 8-speed cassette correctly.
Yes, Bikedued will probably need a new cassette and chain but that is not because the cog pitch is different between a 8 and 9 speed systems. The "pitch" or distance between the teeth is the same for either system. Both use 3/32" chains but the width of the chain is the difference. The width between the plates is narrower for the 9 speed and may not mesh properly with the cassette teeth. Simply put, an 8 speed chain on a 9 speed cassette will probably hit adjacent cogs and a 9 speed chain on an 8 speed cassette may ride on top of the cogs.
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Old 08-19-16, 07:04 AM
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Adjusting a gear out is nothing new to me, done several 8 speed shifter, 7 speed cassette builds. D'oh! You know you've been building 70's and early 80's bikes too long when you forget the binder bolt trick. It completely slipped my mind, lol. I have a 9 speed cassette around here somewhere too, if that fails. I might even have a used nine speed chain as well.,,,,BD

Thanks for jogging my memory!

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Old 08-19-16, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Yes, Bikedued will probably need a new cassette and chain but that is not because the cog pitch is different between a 8 and 9 speed systems. The "pitch" or distance between the teeth is the same for either system. Both use 3/32" chains but the width of the chain is the difference. The width between the plates is narrower for the 9 speed and may not mesh properly with the cassette teeth. Simply put, an 8 speed chain on a 9 speed cassette will probably hit adjacent cogs and a 9 speed chain on an 8 speed cassette may ride on top of the cogs.
Just a slight correction: the outer width of the chains varies, but the inner width is the same for 6 to 11 speed chains. Not sure about SRAM 12 speed one.

So while 8 speed chain might rub and get stuck on a 9 speed cassette, the opposite - 9 speed chain on an 8 speed cassette will probably work almost as good (just cost more and last less).

Also wrote an article on chain compatibility:

1) Compatibility - chains - Cycle Gremlin
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Old 08-19-16, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
Just a slight correction: the outer width of the chains varies, but the inner width is the same for 6 to 11 speed chains. Not sure about SRAM 12 speed one.

So while 8 speed chain might rub and get stuck on a 9 speed cassette, the opposite - 9 speed chain on an 8 speed cassette will probably work almost as good (just cost more and last less).

Also wrote an article on chain compatibility:

1) Compatibility - chains - Cycle Gremlin
I don't think that your correction is correct. According to your article "Shimano is, as far as I know, the only manufacturer that makes asymmetrical chains". Sram chains up to 9 speed aren't directional. Neither are KMC. In other words there is no "inner" and "outer" plates so any difference in width is due to an overall thinning of the chain.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I don't think that your correction is correct. According to your article "Shimano is, as far as I know, the only manufacturer that makes asymmetrical chains". Sram chains up to 9 speed aren't directional. Neither are KMC. In other words there is no "inner" and "outer" plates so any difference in width is due to an overall thinning of the chain.
Assymetrical chain has outer plates closer to the frame differ from the outer plates that face away from the frame. Do you know any other such chain manufacturer, apart from Shimano? I'd correct that.

The diameter that inside rollers have is the same. 1/8″ (3.175 mm) for single speed and 3/32″ (2.38 mm) for multi speed chains. 10 speed chain rides an 8 speed chainring without problems. The only difference is the outer diameter, outer width of the chain.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:52 AM
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there are no steps in rear derailleurs just stops limiting the range of travel.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Yes, Bikedued will probably need a new cassette and chain but that is not because the cog pitch is different between a 8 and 9 speed systems. The "pitch" or distance between the teeth is the same for either system. Both use 3/32" chains but the width of the chain is the difference. The width between the plates is narrower for the 9 speed and may not mesh properly with the cassette teeth. Simply put, an 8 speed chain on a 9 speed cassette will probably hit adjacent cogs and a 9 speed chain on an 8 speed cassette may ride on top of the cogs.
"Cog pitch" or "Sprocket Pitch" is used as a term to describe the distance between the sprockets on a cassette, not the distance between the teeth on a single sprocket.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycl...ing_Dimensions

Cog Pitch

The center to center spacing between adjacent cogs of a cluster is called the pitch. It is usual for the pitch to be uniform across a cog-set whether it is arranged in a freewheel or in a cassette. Other uses of the term pitch refer to the distance between teeth on the cogs and the distance between links of the chain that engage them. Chains have an unambiguous pitch of 0.5 inches on bicycles, so this term can be used here safely to refer to center to center cog spacing.
Leonard Zinn knows the score:

Technical FAQ: Shifting problems and cog spacing | VeloNews.com

The cog pitch (distance between the centers of the teeth on adjacent cogs)...

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Old 08-19-16, 09:41 AM
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Bikedued, The existing RD will have the same pull ratio as the Tiagra RH STI. The FD has a slightly different pull ratio that may or may not work with the cable anchored to the B side of the bolt for the indexed LH STI.

If the FD and shifter can't be sorted you can go with bar ends or use a FD meant for a road group triple. Some more recent road group triple FDs won't work unless there is a 12T difference between the middle and outer chain rings. I use a RX100 FD, RSX 8S STI, on the front of my beater, which has only an 8T difference. The RX100 is probably identical to a 5403 FD.

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Old 08-19-16, 10:52 AM
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I have a couple of Tiagra 9 speed FD's, and a couple of identical 9 speed XT RD's. I just went through the whole road shifter vs 9 speed mountain derailleurs thing a few weeks ago. I gave up and put the straight bars back on, lol. The back was sort of okay, but the front was a nightmare. I couldn't use a Tiagra front on that project, because the clamp hit RIGHT on the bottle cage mount.,,,,BD

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Old 08-19-16, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bikedued View Post
I know 7 and 8 are pretty compatible, done it several times. But.... I am building a drop bar mountain bike, and it's an 8 speed Gary Fisher X Caliber. I am using a Gary Bar, and was thinking about bar end shifters. However, I do have a set of 2012ish Tiagra 3x9 speed brifters. I don't think I've ever tried this, but I was wondering if anyone else has. I don't know the 9 to 8 speed compatibility rules. Is the cable pull the same?,,,,BD
.....]
Some of the responses above ____________......

An 8 speed Shimano MTB RD will work fine with Tiagra 3x9 brifters with no modifications. A 9 speed chain is highly recommended. A 9 speed cassette is required, because the cog to cog spacing is very different from an 8 speed cassette. (note 7 and 8 speed spacing is almost the same, so 8 speed shifters can usually be adjusted to work fine with 7 speed).

The FD is going to be an issue, easiest to get a triple road FD.
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Old 08-19-16, 12:10 PM
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Woohoo. I was just trying to cobble together some bar end shifters with some orphan bases, and some Sante shifters I had laying around, when I ran across an FD that came in a group of parts from a friend. A Shimano Sora FD 3403. I looked it up, and it says 27 speed, so it is a 9spd. That should do the trick for the front eh? I am wondering if it will hit the rings on the way up. It's pretty deep on the back side of the cage. I am going to give it a try, and see what happens.,,,,BD
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Old 08-19-16, 12:22 PM
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Annnnnnd it's a bottom pull. No way I could have that kind of luck. The Sante's are 7 speed. Of course. I'm batting a thousand from the stash here.,,,,BD

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Old 08-19-16, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bikedued View Post
Annnnnnd it's a bottom pull. No way I could have that kind of luck. The Sante's are 7 speed. Of course. I'm batting a thousand from the stash here.,,,,BD
Most road FDs are bottom pull. There are solutions.

This article covers FD compatibility and the mounting of a FD adapter to alter the cable routing:


5) Compatibility - front derailleurs - Cycle Gremlin


Problem Solvers make the adapter:
Problem Solvers
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Old 08-19-16, 12:55 PM
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Maybe next week I can order a bunch of stuff. I bought five bikes on Monday, and I am still behind despite getting paid between then and now. It will live, and it will be 27 speed. I am even going to use the cross levers that are on the bars with the shifters. That way I can have more hand positions, and be safe. I'm not getting any younger.,,,,BD
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Old 08-19-16, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
Assymetrical chain has outer plates closer to the frame differ from the outer plates that face away from the frame. Do you know any other such chain manufacturer, apart from Shimano? I'd correct that.
I'm confused. I'm quoting you and I'm working off the knowledge that I've gleaned from years of installing chains. The only chains that I've run across that have an inside and outside edge are some (but not all) of the Shimano chains. Sram doesn't doesn't imply that there is an inner or outer side to their chains. That says to me that they are symmetrical and thinner overall.

Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
The diameter that inside rollers have is the same. 1/8″ (3.175 mm) for single speed and 3/32″ (2.38 mm) for multi speed chains. 10 speed chain rides an 8 speed chainring without problems. The only difference is the outer diameter, outer width of the chain.
I think you are confusing "pitch"...i.e. the distance from pin to pin...with width. A 10 speed chain may ride on an 8 speed chainring but it's not always true. 8 speed chainrings are made of thicker metal with a wider tooth than many 10 speed chainrings. A 3/32" 10 speed chain will mesh with the teeth of the 8 speed chainwheel but the chain may not release cleanly because of the extra width and "suck" up into the frame. 8 to 9 usually isn't a problem but 8 to 10 could be problematic.
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Old 08-19-16, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
"Cog pitch" or "Sprocket Pitch" is used as a term to describe the distance between the sprockets on a cassette, not the distance between the teeth on a single sprocket.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycl...ing_Dimensions



Leonard Zinn knows the score:

Technical FAQ: Shifting problems and cog spacing | VeloNews.com
That's a new one on me. It's also a bastardization of the "normal" meaning of "pitch" and only serves to confuse people. If you asked 10 mechanics about pitch as it relates to cogs, I doubt one of them would say that it has to do with the spacing of the cogs.
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Old 08-19-16, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I'm confused. I'm quoting you and I'm working off the knowledge that I've gleaned from years of installing chains. The only chains that I've run across that have an inside and outside edge are some (but not all) of the Shimano chains.
That is what I also said. Shimano is the only company I know of that makes such asymmetrical chains.


Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I think you are confusing "pitch"...i.e. the distance from pin to pin...with width. A 10 speed chain may ride on an 8 speed chainring but it's not always true. 8 speed chainrings are made of thicker metal with a wider tooth than many 10 speed chainrings. A 3/32" 10 speed chain will mesh with the teeth of the 8 speed chainwheel but the chain may not release cleanly because of the extra width and "suck" up into the frame. 8 to 9 usually isn't a problem but 8 to 10 could be problematic.
Pitch of all the bike chains is half an inch. With one pair of links (inner, and outer plates) being 1" - measured from the middle of one pin, across the second, to the middle of the third pin.

3/32" is the inner thickness of the chain. Maybe we don't understand each other. Here's what I'm thinking of:



Pitch is the same for all the chains.
Roller width is the same.
Outer width (R mark) varies - being thinner, smaller, as the number of speeds increases 8>9>10>11.
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Old 08-19-16, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
It can work with alternate cable routing. And setting the shifer so that the 8th (fastest) speed on the cassette is the 8th speed on the shifter, while the 9th would be an unused one - click the shifter, and the RD stays locked by the limit screw, won't move.

I wrote this article on compatibility, it has the pic of the alternate routing from Sheldon Brown's site and it works OK. Not perfect in all the gears, but acceptable.

7) Compatibility - rear shifters - Cycle Gremlin

Or you could put a 9 speed cassette and chain.
I tried the alternative cable routing from SB's site - 9 speed indexed shifters (both bar-end and STI) and an 8 speed cassette, and I couldn't make it work satisfactorily at all. The cheap and easy solution was to just buy an inexpensive 9 speed cassette which both fit on the 8 speed hub and worked with the 8 speed Shimano MTB derailleur.
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