Bill Kapaun

Are you using different length spokes for each side and forgetting that you have different lengths?
IE- Using the shorter DS spokes as sets 1 & 2 instead of sets 1 & 3.

That would seem to kind of make sense if you initially screw the nipples on so that the same amount of thread is showing.

ThermionicScott 

Are the elbows-out spokes the ones that are getting tight faster?

Tunnelrat81

These are two different things. Stress Relieving alone will not neutralize spoke twist because it doesn't bring the spokes to zero tension. That is done by whatever process you use to relieve spoke twist (bracing the hub flange and pressing down hard on opposing ends of the rim until the spokes go slack.) This is a different process, and should be done in addition to stress relieving the wheel. These two are often confused/combined, but they are distinctly different, with different purposes and processes.

-Jeremy

Tunnelrat81

I'm curious as to the reason behind tightening ONLY DS spokes first, then doing another revolution to tighten NDS spokes. I've never done this, and I see it as an opportunity for confusion and imbalance. Is there some reason why the advice shouldn't be to simply tighten each spoke by 1 turn, starting and ending at the valve hole?

I, too, notice this tension rhythm of high / low with my wheel builds, but I've noticed that it coincides with the elbow in spokes loose, the elbows out spokes tight. It's very simple at the beginning of the build to take up the additional slack on the elbow in spokes until they roughly match the elbows out ones. Once this very quick review is done, I start adding tension and it's smooth sailing from there.

-Jeremy

FBinNY 

+1, stress relieving and spoke twist are unrelated, though often confused.

But neither is likely related to the OP's problem which seems to be related to torquing the two flanges in opposite directions.

I can't say how the OP is doing this, but this opposite torques issue is the only way to get and maintain the hi-lo tension pattern the OP is struggling with.

FBinNY 

I've been tightening drive side spokes first for the last 30 years or so, mainly since the change to 6s and the higher dish that imposed.

The advantage is that means less working of tight spokes, so reduce spoke twist to manage, and near the end reduced risk of nipple damage (especially with alloy nipples).

But working one flange at a time means working both spokes on that flange together, so there's no torquing of the flange possible.

I also take the right flange first to extremes by building wheels overdished to the right, getting them concentric and mostly wobble free there at about 80-90% of target tension, then finishing by working only the left side spokes (as much as possible) to correct dish and alignment while bringing the wheel up to tension.

Bill Kapaun

For wheels with dish-(rear or disc brake wheels)

Since the wheel has dish, the NDS spokes only have around 50-70% of the tension that the DS spokes do. (conventional rear wheels)

Since the ANGLE of the NDS spokes is greater, tightening them 1 turn moves the rim to that side much more than 1 turn tighter on the DS.

IF you build up both sides equally, you'll find that you'll end up having to back off the NDS spokes to get proper dish.
Concentrating on the DS first, allows one to just add a bit of tension to the NDS to "top off" the truing.

Basically, we try to get "enough" tension on the DS. The tension on the NDS ends up wherever it ends up to get the proper dish. We just try to keep those spokes at equal tension to each other.

Tunnelrat81

I'm quite familiar with wheel building principles and theory, and have built probably 15 wheelsets for myself and others in the past 3 years. This DS tension first thing simply hasn't been a part of my routine. I simpy pay attention to dish throughout the build, so although I AM having to turn some tighter DS nipples at tension, I'm not chasing dish after the fact either. Plus, the nipples aren't dry, and I never build with alloy, so nipple strength has never been a problem. It's a good idea though, but I fear I'd have to start over a bit on the learning curve to work out how much tension, and when to switch to the NDS. Maybe next time I build a set for myself, rather than a friend who's waiting on me.

-Jeremy

79pmooney

One thing I always check is the relative tensions of crossing pairs of spokes. Very easy to tap them with the spoke wrench and tighten one and loosen the other to bring to near equal. Using FB's description and randomizing the sequences of tightening may lesson the need for this. (Thanks FB. My wheels come out good but you may be saving me time.)

Ben

atlantis

@FBinNY
Initially the problem arose ( alternate tensions)when i finished the wheel, but someone advised to check tension during the build , hence I started to check earlier.
When i reach a good tension, I seat both the elbows and lightly tap the outgoing spokes (the head-in ones), to straighten them.
My work is very slow, hence I can vouch that my nipple turns are very uniform.

@ThermionicScott
Something to think about here! you are right, it is the elbow out spokes that are tighter than the elbow-in o( outgoing spokes)

@Tunnelrat81
I pretty much do this to correct the issue, but is this the solution ?

@c79pmooney
Please elaborate !

Now since it is happening with the front wheel (non disc)as well , I am certainly doing something wrong,since both the front and rear wheel are built with a slight difference.

@ThermionicScott you did diagnose the issue with the elbow out, is there a solution here ?

ThermionicScott 

If you take a close look at your wheels and think about it, the elbows-out spokes take a slightly longer path to the rim than the elbows-in spokes. That means that since you are so careful to advance all of the spoke nipples to the same exact spot on every spoke when you start, the elbows-out spokes have a "head start" on tension. It's not a flaw as long as you have some kind of plan/process to deal with it along the way. I like @Tunnelrat81's idea of putting extra tension (maybe an extra turn or so) on the elbows-in spokes at the beginning -- my wheelbuilds so far (six? seven?) were more a matter of cleaning it up and evening it out as I went.

I also like to straighten the spoke lines and set the elbows near the beginning, as Jobst recommended. Do you have a copy of his book? It's easy to find online in pdf form.

Tunnelrat81

Wheel building is extremely dynamic, and requires the ability to work through each wheel as it's own puzzle. If it was the same every time, there'd be no need for wheel building forum threads. Processes can be followed to approach consistency, but they have to be dynamic processes. This is not a disease to diagnose and treat. If there are looser spokes, you need to tighten them at the beginning before ANY tension is added to the wheel.

The transition from lacing the wheel to adding tension is all about creating a uniform starting point. If the spokes don't start off in the right place, the process will be a wrestling match. Balance it all at the beginning and you'll be amazed at how easy the rest will go.

All this is to say, as I did before, if some spokes are more loose (and the rim is mostly in the right(ish) location), tighten them to match the others. Remember that this is while the spokes are still floppy. It might be one or more turns even, but don't sweat it. Those loose ones are having zero influence on the rim at this point anyway (the only time this will be true), so take advantage of it. There is no science here, just finding the proper uniform starting point.

-Jeremy

FBinNY 

One hint, though I'm sure others will disagree.

DO NOT CHECK, COMPENSATE OR CORRECT TENSION EARLY IN THE TIGHTENING SEQUENCE.

At low tensions, there are all sorts of variables, including, but limited to uneven setting of the elbows. This can cause tension anomalies, which can cause you to "correct" something that was right before you made it wrong.

If you were methodical in your processes, the wheel will be right on it's own, except for the small variations in the range of 1/4 to 1/2 turns based on imperfect matching when you pretightened to a set depth, and slight variation in the thickness and setting of eyelets. If you do nothing else, all the spokes will be matched to within that 1/2 turn or so, and that can only be resolved as you reach enough tension that the spokes are settled and running true.

I do a setting process at about 3/4 final tension using a piece of broom stick and pushing the crosses in and toward the flange to overload and settle each crossed pair. (you can do the same by grabbing the 2 opposite pairs at the cross and squeezing them together, but this can be hard on your hands if you're working on multiple wheels). It's after this settling at the 3/4 tension that I do most of the fine tuning and get the wheel "finished" short of loading the final tension, and aligning to my standards.

The above warning notwithstanding, you'll sometimes find a spoke or two that are obviously off for whatever reason, it's OK to correct these as you discover them, but be careful that you're not making "fixing what ain't broke".

As you read and integrate it into your own techniques (there's more than one way to build good wheels) keep in mind that people were building good wheels using lighter, less perfect materials for almost a century before "learning" that this wasn't the right way to do things.

FBinNY 

This doesn't matter at all on a wheel that's built mirrored (elbows out on both trailing or leading spokes). Since both elbow out spokes are pulling in the same direction, it creates an intolerable torque imbalance on the hub, which acts in accordance with Newtonian laws and rotates slightly until the tension equalizes.

If you think about it for a moment, it'll be obvious (the hub knew and it doesn't have a brain), and you'll have one more worry to file away in the doesn't matter pile.

Building a wheel is a rote process involving uniform repetitive actions. Thinking is barely necessary, and the less you do, the faster you'll be turning out well built durable wheels. Yes, it does require some degree of touch, but only because you need to correct the imperfections that are inherent or introduced along the way.

atlantis

Does the leading spokes ie inbound or outbound make a difference or cause an issue, such as in my case ?

I wanted to mention all of my builds have the leading spokes inbound.

The only exception is a drive side of a front disc wheel, where my leading spokes are outbound.

Apologies for not wording it right ! I realised my mistake when I did not get any replies.

atlantis

An update !
After pondering over the thread and some reading, I realised that my lacing pattern on standard wheels was kinda wrong.

I was not doing a mirror build, and was lacing most of my wheels like a rear disc wheel.
Since I was building a new rear wheel(non disc) I laced it mirrored and the problem with unequal spoke tension went away.
This I repeated on some old wheels which had not been ridden, and re-laced them.
All seems good for now. @FBinNY if you could guide me to the lacing pattern that you use for your builds , I would be grateful.

Dan Burkhart 

First a comment about terminology. for me at least, just saying heads in or heads out removes any confusion and leaves nothing open for interpretation.
Secondly, it's my belief that the only reason in the world for non mirrored lacing is to speed production in fast paced environments. Dropping all the spokes angled on one direction through both flanges speeds production.
I build almost everything with leading spokes heads out for no other reason than it's the habit I fell into. If I lost my sight tomorrow, I could still lace wheels this way. (I have tested this)
None of the theories and opinions I have read about the effects of various lacing patterns have convinced me that any one way is so superior to all others that it should be the only way.

FBinNY 

First of all, it's generally better to build ALL wheels mirrored. As for elbow in or elbow out for pulling spokes, I leave that up to you, though I prefer to build pulling elbow out.

I lace a bit differently than what's shown in most primers. I load ALL the spokes into the hub, and bring them to the rim in crossed pairs off one flange, then the other. This saves a bit of time, and eliminates the issue of weaving elbow out spokes under the cross.

But, here's how to get it right, no matter the assembly sequence you prefer.

Start at the rim. With the valve at 12 o'clock, count the 1st 2 spokes to the right. These will be the pulling spokes coming off the hub. You need to know if they're coming left/right or right/left. Most modern rims are left right, but I check every time.

Now look at the hub, eyeball the label (skip this part if you don't care) and find the gap between holes that lines up best, keeping in mind that the left flange will be forward or behind the right by half a hole, matching the L/R or R/L in the rim. Now with the label at 12 o'clock you want the first two holes on opposite flanges above 3'oclock. (for 32h)

These two spokes are the pulling spokes that will connect to the 1st two holes right of the valve. Put a spoke in each, elbow in or out according to your preference, but the same, keeping mind that one is leading the other by half a hole matching the rim. Connect both to the rim, so you can't lose your place. Now continue the same way you already know.

BTW - If this helps you and you're truly grateful, think about what the advice was worth, Then pick your favorite charity and donate double that (once for the value you received and once for a true act of charity). If you don't have a favorite charity, mine this month is St. Jude's children's hospital in Memphis.

atlantis

Will do that certainly !

Gratitude for all your responses,
Since mirror builds it is, what would be the trailing spokes in a fixie rear wheel, and disk brake rear and front ? ie. with heads in or out ?

Meathorse

Makes one wonder how wheels were built, for over a century, without a tensionmeter...