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Why is my rear tire rubbing against my chainstay?

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Why is my rear tire rubbing against my chainstay?

Old 11-14-16, 10:42 PM
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Why is my rear tire rubbing against my chainstay?

So I have my rear wheel aligned well (as far as visual inspection can tell), with equal space between the chainstays and the tire on each side. However, I've noticed that when I am pedaling with great force (going from stop on a high gear, or climbing a hill), I can hear a subtle scraping sound. I found out that it is the tire rubbing, just barely, on the non-drive-side chainstay. It's like the torque on the freewheel is somehow tilting the wheel.

I'm not sure if it is the wheel, or the axle. I don't think the wheel, I've had this wheel for a while and never had problems. But, this has only been happening since I got new skewers - Pitlock locking skewers.

Pitlock locking skewers

Could it be that the skewers are too loose? It doesn't seem that way. Could it be that they are bending somehow? Something else?

To be clear; the tire is pulled toward the chainstay during intense pedaling, but then goes back to it's normal position, it doesn't stay crooked. However, I can't tell for sure, but it seems that the "normal position" is slowly drifting over toward that non-drive-side chainstay as well, if that makes sense.
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Old 11-14-16, 11:06 PM
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There's a few reasons that are usual for this. Loose skewer retention, the axle is slipping within the drive side drop out. But only if that drop out is a slot (note lack of specific info, but Fuji Royales in the day were horizontal drops). The wheel's spokes could be really loose so the rim moves and shift on the hub under pressure. A simple spoke pluck test helps to figure this out. The usual reason is that the axle is broken. The skewer helps to align the axle when static. But add force on one side of the axle/wheel and it twists/shifts to the LH side of the chain stay. Remove the wheel and check the axle's integrity. There are other reasons but these are what to look at first. Andy
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Old 11-14-16, 11:48 PM
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I went to Pitlock. Quote:

"Not Too Tight!

Resist the temptation to make the Pitlock as tight as you can get it. You don't need to lean on your wrench to make the Pitlock hold your wheel securely on your frame, provided you're using vertical dropouts. See the paragraph on horizontal dropouts below. If you clamp the Pitlock too tightly, you can break the skewer shaft. Just put a spot of grease on the thread and tighten the Pit firmly. It's designed not to loosen up while you're riding, so you don't need all of your strength to make a safe connection.

Horizontal Dropouts?

I don't recommend a Pitlock rear skewer if your frame has horizontal dropouts. Horizontal dropouts require very high clamping force, otherwise the wheel will slip forward in the right dropout. Pitlocks are designed for vertical dropouts, which do not require high clamping force. The Pitlocks can't produce enough clamping force for a horizontal dropout. Think of them as comparable to aluminum QR skewers, which, as most people now know, can't be used with older bikes having horizontal dropouts. But with vertical dropouts, Pitlocks will hold your wheel quite securely in the frame. Don't worry."


Do you have horizontal or vertical dropouts? (This would be Andy's loose skewer retention.)


Ben
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Old 11-15-16, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I went to Pitlock. Quote:

"Not Too Tight!

Resist the temptation to make the Pitlock as tight as you can get it. You don't need to lean on your wrench to make the Pitlock hold your wheel securely on your frame, provided you're using vertical dropouts. See the paragraph on horizontal dropouts below. If you clamp the Pitlock too tightly, you can break the skewer shaft. Just put a spot of grease on the thread and tighten the Pit firmly. It's designed not to loosen up while you're riding, so you don't need all of your strength to make a safe connection.

Horizontal Dropouts?

I don't recommend a Pitlock rear skewer if your frame has horizontal dropouts. Horizontal dropouts require very high clamping force, otherwise the wheel will slip forward in the right dropout. Pitlocks are designed for vertical dropouts, which do not require high clamping force. The Pitlocks can't produce enough clamping force for a horizontal dropout. Think of them as comparable to aluminum QR skewers, which, as most people now know, can't be used with older bikes having horizontal dropouts. But with vertical dropouts, Pitlocks will hold your wheel quite securely in the frame. Don't worry."


Do you have horizontal or vertical dropouts? (This would be Andy's loose skewer retention.)


Ben
They are angled, but definitely closer to horizontal that to vertical, if that's what "horizontal dropout" means. That is a shame these skewers werent cheap! I guess I'll have to get a QR on the rear...
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Old 11-15-16, 01:57 AM
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This bike? Those are very horizontal dropouts; about the only dropouts more horizontal than that are the ends used on track bikes. Without high clamping force, wheel slippage in the dropouts can definitely be a risk. It's very common for a poorly-secured rear wheel in horizontal dropouts to get yanked out of alignment by drivetrain force on the rear cluster, causing the tire to hit the non-drive-side chainstay.

I'd recommend getting good QR skewers, preferably internal cam.

Last edited by HTupolev; 11-15-16 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 11-15-16, 02:20 AM
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Could you use something similar to Surly's Tuggnut? Small Parts | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes


I had two of them on my old frame to keep things where they needed to be with horizontal dropouts and a bolt on Rohloff hub. You really only need one, but I have OCD. See the photo below.


Shawn



Last edited by DoctorTattoo; 11-15-16 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 11-15-16, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by floyd0117
They are angled, but definitely closer to horizontal that to vertical, if that's what "horizontal dropout" means. That is a shame these skewers werent cheap! I guess I'll have to get a QR on the rear...

Remove the axle from wheel
replace with a solid 10mmx1 axle
use pitlock solid axle nuts
?

see if they'll offer a discount/exchange? on swapping the pitlock qr for solid nuts after explaining the situation?
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Old 11-15-16, 07:26 AM
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A Pitlock skewer should not be considered until you have eliminated loose spoke tension and a broken axle (or even loose cones). Starting up from a stop in high gear is not a good idea, for both mechanical and safety reasons.
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Old 11-15-16, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by floyd0117
They are angled, but definitely closer to horizontal that to vertical, if that's what "horizontal dropout" means. That is a shame these skewers werent cheap! I guess I'll have to get a QR on the rear...
Yeah "horizontal" dropouts are actually angled up in back to get the rear wheel to slide roughly parallel to the brake shoe and not affect brake pad height on the rim. "Vertical" dropouts are usually not actually vertical either. Never really gave it much thought before, but perpendicular to the chainstay would make sense.

Track ends as seen on fix gear frames are actually horizontal so the bike doesn't get pitched nose up or nose down depending on wheel location. No brake shoes so that isn't an issue.

Ben
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Old 11-15-16, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
This bike? Those are very horizontal dropouts; about the only dropouts more horizontal than that are the ends used on track bikes. Without high clamping force, wheel slippage in the dropouts can definitely be a risk. It's very common for a poorly-secured rear wheel in horizontal dropouts to get yanked out of alignment by drivetrain force on the rear cluster, causing the tire to hit the non-drive-side chainstay.

I'd recommend getting good QR skewers, preferably internal cam.
I just put back on my old Suntour QR that came with my Fuji Royale, and am just going to proactice Sheldon's locking method to be safe. I would get a Zefal locking QR, but they don't come in silver! Nor are their internal cam.
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Old 11-15-16, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman
Starting up from a stop in high gear is not a good idea, for both mechanical and safety reasons.
I know, but I'm not yet used to these down-tube shifters
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Old 11-15-16, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DoctorTattoo
Could you use something similar to Surly's Tuggnut? Small Parts | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes
The Surly Hurdy-Gurdy:
Small Parts | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes

It's designed to keep the wheel slipping on these old horizontal drop-out bikes.
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Old 11-15-16, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
The Surly Hurdy-Gurdy:
Small Parts | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes

It's designed to keep the wheel slipping on these old horizontal drop-out bikes.
I dont see how this works.... I have no small hole in the back of my dropout for the crew mounted to the end of that piece from surly
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Old 11-15-16, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by floyd0117
I dont see how this works.... I have no small hole in the back of my dropout for the crew mounted to the end of that piece from surly
https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downlo...ructions_w.pdf

The screw doesn't mount to the frame, it connects to a stopper than is pinched against the frame.
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Old 11-15-16, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman
A Pitlock skewer should not be considered until you have eliminated loose spoke tension and a broken axle (or even loose cones). Starting up from a stop in high gear is not a good idea, for both mechanical and safety reasons.
It only happened when he switched to pit locks. What about something like the Surly monkey nuts?
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Old 11-15-16, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Leebo
It only happened when he switched to pit locks. What about something like the Surly monkey nuts?
But my dropouts open toward the seat tube, not toward the back of the bike (it's not a track forkend). So I'd have to put the monkey nuts infront of the skewer to prevent it from slipping. Which means I'd have to remove the monkey nut whenever I take my wheel off. There are some other surly components that look like they might work, though
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Old 11-15-16, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downlo...ructions_w.pdf

The screw doesn't mount to the frame, it connects to a stopper than is pinched against the frame.
I see. So all of the force that causes the slipping of my skewer would be held by that tiny screw? I suppose that may work. Is a slipping skewer the purpose of these things?
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Old 11-15-16, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by floyd0117
But my dropouts open toward the seat tube, not toward the back of the bike (it's not a track forkend). So I'd have to put the monkey nuts infront of the skewer to prevent it from slipping. Which means I'd have to remove the monkey nut whenever I take my wheel off. There are some other surly components that look like they might work, though
Monkey Nuts
are NOT designed for retaining any load, especially not when used facing backwards
they're simple spacers designed to aid in wheel positioning for the Karate Monkey frameset, they were made specifically for that frame because many people had assembly issues with wheel vs derailer position for ideal shifting, and needed a physical guideline

also
Hurdy Gurdy etc chain tensioners
are meant for Track Ends, which face the opposite direction from your Horizontal Dropouts
it *may* be possible to modify one to hook over the backside of your dropouts, but since there's no rearward facing slot for them to mount in, Modification may be required

Correction: Hurdy Gurdy isn't a chain tensioner, appears this might be what you need

Last edited by xenologer; 11-16-16 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 11-16-16, 08:12 AM
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^^^ Yup.
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Old 11-16-16, 09:07 AM
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https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downlo...ructions_w.pdf


The recommendation of the Hurdy-Gurdy is probably the right answer. Look at the second page of the PDF.
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Old 11-16-16, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DoctorTattoo
https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downlo...ructions_w.pdf


The recommendation of the Hurdy-Gurdy is probably the right answer. Look at the second page of the PDF.


If you read the PDF, it says that you need a quick release with high clamping power. So it does not seem like this will be the right solution.


xenologer is on the right track here.
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Old 11-16-16, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xenologer
Monkey Nuts
are NOT designed for retaining any load, especially not when used facing backwards
they're simple spacers designed to aid in wheel positioning for the Karate Monkey frameset, they were made specifically for that frame because many people had assembly issues with wheel vs derailer position for ideal shifting, and needed a physical guideline

also
Hurdy Gurdy etc chain tensioners
are meant for Track Ends, which face the opposite direction from your Horizontal Dropouts
it *may* be possible to modify one to hook over the backside of your dropouts, but since there's no rearward facing slot for them to mount in, Modification may be required

Correction: Hurdy Gurdy isn't a chain tensioner, appears this might be what you need

I see what you're saying, but that's not exactly what I meant. All I was saying is that, on Track ends, the monkey nut goes on the inside relative to the frame. And, If I had a skewer with low clamping power, being pulled out of line by the chain (as is my problem) ,then the monkey nut would fix that on track ends, since it is located in the direction the skewer is being pulled. In that sense, they would retain some load, at least a bit.

That, of course, is not the case with horizontal dropouts.
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Old 11-16-16, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ExpertTools
If you read the PDF, it says that you need a quick release with high clamping power. So it does not seem like this will be the right solution.


xenologer is on the right track here.
Best solution I found was to switch to a QR skewer and practice Sheldon's locking method. And that's what I'm doing.
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