I use Stoddard Solvent in a parts cleaner. Farm stores sale it.

I use Simple Green in a small ultrasonic for small parts.

And MEK/MPK has a place in my shop. Just not for general cleaning.

Vinegar can clean up rust, but it's not as good as phosphoric acid or oxalic acid for that purpose. I wouldn't expect it to work as a degreaser. The biggest problem with using vinegar is the irresistible craving for turnip greens or collards I get as soon as I smell it.

Let's cut to the chase, Stuart. All you want to do is say that you use White Lightning or similar wax lubes, have excellent results for the conditions you ride, and you don't even have to clean your chains.

Which really does make your participation in the discussion of practical -- as opposed to theoretical -- methods somewhat moot, doesn't it?

Where in SoCal are you? There is plenty of OMS (the real stuff) at the Home Depots here in San Diego.

Who pissed in your Wheaties this morning?:rolleyes:

I've said nothing about chain lubes in this thread. The thread isn't about chain lubes. It's about degreasers. I can't avoid degreasing parts entirely but, yes, because of the way I do my chains I do it a whole lot less than other people.

But, because I do occasionally have to degrease parts and because I'm a chemist with 35+ years of experience dealing with how to dissolve stuff for various professional reasons, I do have a wee bit more knowledge about the subject than your average home, or even professional, mechanic. Not only do I know what works and, more importantly what doesn't work, I know why something solvents don't work on grease while others do.

More to the point, I don't think I'm pushing back any frontiers of science by saying that water and steel chains are not good things to use together.

Finally, along with the 35 years of chemical experience, I have 35+ years of bicycle mechanic experience. I teach people how to work on their bikes. I've even taught some people who went on to become paid bicycle mechanics and I consult...as in they ask me for help solving problems they've never seen before...regularly with the paid bicycle mechanics at my local co-op.

So, no, my participation in these discussions isn't "moot" nor is it just "theoretical".

cyccommute- I, for one, thank you for your additions to threads. There are a few posters that I look for and will open a thread I might otherwise not have much interest in if I see their replies. you are one of these. I admit that I don't always agree with you or others, but I try to be man enough to get past any opinion differences and see the discussion's greater good. (Like your use of a wax chain lube:)) Andy.

Just so you'll know, according to the MSDS of each product the oral LD50 for Hold Tight 102 is 6400 mg/kg and for OMS the oral LD50 is >7000. So Hold Tight 102 is slightly more of a "poison."

Even pure water is toxic at some dose.

Without considering actual facts, guessing is all one has.

Actually, commercial machine shops have migrated to some extent to aqueous parts washers. Hot water and a soap/detergent mix in a closed loop machine with a filter. They work ok.

Prior to that almost all shops used parts washers that recirculated something very much like Stoddard solvent (pretty much mineral spirits). There was a tub with a sump, a filter, and a pump attached to a metal hose from which poured the solvent over your part.

I use min spirits. As Andrew pointed out, the heavy crud settles out and you can pour off almost all of the stuff as a clear mix of min spirits and a bit of grease/oil, for re-use.

I don't get it. So many posters here wedded to water-based degreasers, which are clearly ineffective compared to relatively benign hydrocarbon-based solvents such as mineral spirits. I know that there is a couple of generation of kids now that have been raised up in First World countries (only) that have been brainwashed into automatically thinking that anything 'green' is good, and anything based on hydrocarbons is bad. But the basic chemistry (I do have a chemistry degree) is that water is close to the worst degreaser possible.

And WD40? Seriously? This is a bad lubricant and worse as a degreaser. I cannot think of anything on a bike that can benefit from WD40. WD40 is the second-worst thing you can give to an inexperienced bike mechanic.

The worst thing you could give is a pressure washer. 10 minutes, and all of the grease gets blown out of the hubs, bottom bracket and headset. A few weeks later, these become a rusted, seized-up mess, requiring hundreds of dollars of repairs.

You may have use for a pressure washer but I doubt that everyone does. I certainly can't think of a single use I'd have for one...especially when it comes to bicycle maintenance.

As for the rust inhibitor being "cheap", I don't call things that cost $70 per gallon "cheap". Even when purchased in bulk, it's still around $40 per gallon. I can't think of anything that I would purchase for $40 per gallon.

Which solvent? There are all kinds of solvents. All of the components of your rust inhibitor as "solvents". Water is a solvent...for some things...it just doesn't do that good a job on grease, no matter how much pressure you think you are putting behind it.

Mineral spirits isn't a particularly hazardous material. Since you don't appear to know much about "poisons", I will tell you that anything with an LD50 of around 7000 mg/kg (probably in mice or rats), is relatively safe. The LD50 stands for "lethal dose, 50%" which is the amount of a substance based on body weight needed to kill half of a test population.

To put it in a bit more concretely, if you weigh around 190lb and you drank 3 cups of mineral spirits, you have about a 50% chance of dying from it. If you drank about 2.5 cups of your rust inhibitor, you'd have about the same chance. As Anklework pointed out, the Holdtight is slightly more toxic.

But the point to take from this is that you have to go out of your way to actually try to poison yourself with mineral spirits.

And the "salt" you are trying to remove? Sodium chloride has an LD50 of 3000mg/kg making it about twice as toxic as either the mineral spirits or the Hold Tight.

Water by itself might be the more environmentally safe option but it is completely ineffective because water by itself doesn't dissolve nonpolar substances like grease and oil. Even under pressure (not as much as you think it is), it doesn't dissolve it but it's more a physical removal which means that it's not removed completely unless you actually hit it with the stream of water.

As to just drying a part in the sun, that works for aluminum but not so well for steel.

The problem here is that you are simply guessing. WD40 is basically mineral spirits with a bit of mineral oil in it. It has about the same toxicity of mineral spirits and shares many of the same properties. Because of the mineral oil and because it costs more, I don't recommend it if the goal is to degrease parts.

I will agree that gasoline is an extremely poor choice given not only its toxicity (LD50 17.5mg/kg, rat) but also its flammability. It's extremely hazardous with multiple hazards. People who insist on using it are fools. Carb cleaner is slightly better but still expensive and shares similar hazards as gasoline.

But mineral spirits which is also known as (or is similar to) white gas, naphtha, paint thinner, mineral turpentine as well as other names, is relatively safe to use.

Commercially, the drive to aqueous is environmental law. And hot water with good detergent works for a lot of macnhine-shop stuff. But, as I said, I use min spirits for my (minimal) parts cleaning use.

Maybe it is semantics but for the sake of clarity, water is a solvent.


-Tim-

Inside or Outside ? A lot of Solvents are not so good in a confined space .

Citrus based Cleaners Dont emit noxious fumes , Winter Inside, That may be better.

They've been saying it for three pages including a lot of good information and a lot of mis-information. Time to close this thread.

You presume to dictate to others what their uses should be, so who is being obtuse?


So in order to clean a simple bike chain (that doesn't need to be cleaned) you spray the environment with your "poisonous" petroleum from the chain and a few ounces of your "poisonous" additive, turn a few gallons of clean water into polluted water, use some energy causing further pollution, and you advocate that others do the same. But you think using less than an ounce of OMS, which rapidly degrades in the air (rather than the soil or waters) where it converts to water and carbon dioxide, is somehow worse. Please tell us again who is not thinking globally?

But I like the idea of you painting your chain; that's clearly on-point.

BTW, I've never seen a pressure washer remove black oxide. Your example looks sand blasted. Are you just using this forum to promote the sale of your additive?

Sorry, I'm trying to follow this thread but maybe I'm not understanding it very well.
Do I really need a pressure washer now? I'm still saving up for a nice wheel stand.

You absolutely must use whatever any and all posters claim is needed, even when this is contradictory. :)


Really the only time I have ever used a pressure sprayer was when doing a very initial cleaning of the entire bike and this was done at a do it yourself car wash. Which I suspect is FAR less then 4000PSI. In my bike life I don't see the need for a high pressure sprayer and actually see a far greater risk of doing internal wrongs (bearing seals don't stop this much pressure) if said pressure were to be miss used.


Since cleaning chains is so simple to do with OMS and a few soda bottles why would one spend hundreds of dollars on equipment just to complicate chain cleaning? Maybe because they like using power tools? I don't know. Andy.

My wife wants one of those bloody things, presumably so she can clean the sidewalk or some other OCD related goal.
Fortunately, the neighbor bought one so she can borrow it whenever she feels the need to clean something to death.

Now we just need to find a use for leaf blowers.

Any reader who even slightly has their curiosity peaked by the thought of using a pressure washer on a bike should absolutely get one. And they'll need the rust inhibitor to give them enough time to repack all the bearings, dry the cable housings, change the hydraulic fluid, drain the wheels, etc. before rust sets in.

The rest of us will just go ride.

Some of us will be doing the repairs to those readers' bikes after a few rides with no lube left in the bearings. :) Andy

This entire thread needs to be exorcized. :thumb:

Washing lubricants into the ground water doesn't seem like an environmentally responsible solution.


-Tim-

Yeah, agree, this topic has been previously discussed ad-nauseam so I'll add in my ad-nausea...

I love solvents just as much as anyone. I have a special penchant for MEK, Acetone, Turpentine and Toluene. I still use auto-specific parts washer solvents for specialized tasks on my sports car but for bike use, I really don't see the need for solvent-based cleaners. The only exception is that Clean Streak spray which is dynamite for cleaning out grungy funk-infused brake levers and derailleurs. WD-40 in other special cases is acceptable to though.

For chains, ball bearings and races, freewheel cogs, chain rings and the rest of the bike the water-based solvents work great and are much easier to deal with to. I have found the ZEP orange de-greaser I get at Home Depot particularly effective; actually, just as effective as solvent-based cleaners.

With water-based cleaners, yes, you do have to be cognizant that a part can rust but as long as the part is dried quickly you're good.

There, my two bits.

PS Never use a pressure washer on a bike you actually paid for. You'll ruin it.