swapping in 11t cog on a 10-speed cassette
#1
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swapping in 11t cog on a 10-speed cassette
Already tried to search the forum - you guys know how well that works.
My last thread was about getting some low gears (for me) for the hills of SF.
For my son (stronger than I ever was), he's got the opposite problem, cycling over the bridge into the Marin headlands, he wants a higher gear.
Hope this is a straight-forward question. I was about to buy an 11t Shimano cog to replace his 12t, when I saw an 11t lockring as well.
Do I have to replace two parts? or just the 11t cog, and use the existing CS-6600 lockring?
Parts:
Cog.
https://smile.amazon.com/Shimano-Dur...t+cog+10+speed
Lockring.
https://smile.amazon.com/Shimano-Ult...t+cog+10+speed
And what about this cheaper part. Would that work for his Ultegra cassette? He's not going to be in top gear much, just on those screaming downhills.
https://smile.amazon.com/Shimano-M77...t+cog+10+speed
My last thread was about getting some low gears (for me) for the hills of SF.
For my son (stronger than I ever was), he's got the opposite problem, cycling over the bridge into the Marin headlands, he wants a higher gear.
Hope this is a straight-forward question. I was about to buy an 11t Shimano cog to replace his 12t, when I saw an 11t lockring as well.
Do I have to replace two parts? or just the 11t cog, and use the existing CS-6600 lockring?
Parts:
Cog.
https://smile.amazon.com/Shimano-Dur...t+cog+10+speed
Lockring.
https://smile.amazon.com/Shimano-Ult...t+cog+10+speed
And what about this cheaper part. Would that work for his Ultegra cassette? He's not going to be in top gear much, just on those screaming downhills.
https://smile.amazon.com/Shimano-M77...t+cog+10+speed
#2
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Shows different part numbers here for 11t and 12t lockrings on a cs-6600 10 speed cassette.
SHIMANO Dealer's Manual / User's Manual
SHIMANO Dealer's Manual / User's Manual
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Lockrings supplied with cassettes that have 12 tooth small cogs will not work with an 11 tooth small cog. You also have to buy the lockring for an 11 tooth small cog.
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Well, the op could grind down the OD of the 12T lock ring... And then periodically check it for tightness as the interface with the small cog might be compromised. Andy. (who has no need for big gears but would just go to his LBS and see if they had a used lock ring).
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Well, the op could grind down the OD of the 12T lock ring... And then periodically check it for tightness as the interface with the small cog might be compromised. Andy. (who has no need for big gears but would just go to his LBS and see if they had a used lock ring).
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Yes, like QR skewers lock rings are tossed out with installations of new replacements frequently. This is one more reason to have a good relationship with your LBS. There are a few things that cost them almost nothing (but some effort) that a good relationship can be had for nearly nothing. Andy
#7
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Thread Starter
OK, one more question. Are the cogs and/or lockrings compatible between 9-10-11 speed cassettes? Or is mix-and-match verboten?
#8
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I'm content with 9 speed, but upon my journey from 7 to 8 to 9, I remember a cassette I bought that had a thin spacer that went between the 2 smallest cogs, and other cassettes of the same speed that didn't.
I think it was a situation where they used an 8 speed smallest cog on the 7 speed with a spacer to get the proper spacing.
IOW, trying to use a smallest cog from a wider spaced cassette may give you a slightly wider gap between the 2 smallest cogs. (other way may give a bit narrower which can cause chain rub between the adjacent cog)
This will reduce the amount of "purchase" the lock ring has when threading it on, which "might" matter.(it does if it causes you to strip the lock ring)
I think it was a situation where they used an 8 speed smallest cog on the 7 speed with a spacer to get the proper spacing.
IOW, trying to use a smallest cog from a wider spaced cassette may give you a slightly wider gap between the 2 smallest cogs. (other way may give a bit narrower which can cause chain rub between the adjacent cog)
This will reduce the amount of "purchase" the lock ring has when threading it on, which "might" matter.(it does if it causes you to strip the lock ring)
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My LBS tosses out neither and has a box of spare lockrings and a bigger box of salvaged QR skewers. The lockrings are usually free for the asking as are the lower line QR skewers. Dura Ace and Campy skewers, on the other hand, command a premium price.
#10
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Thread Starter
Found the 11t cog and lockring new on Craigslist today for $10. Indeed, the lockring is unique to the 11t, as people said.
Here's the Shimano diagram.
https://https://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/ev/EV-CS-6600-2370.pdf
Here's the Shimano diagram.
https://https://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/ev/EV-CS-6600-2370.pdf
Last edited by sunburst; 01-21-17 at 10:38 PM.
#11
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OK, I'm back with this thread. I installed the 11T quickly and easily but did not road test. My son rode it for a while and started to complain about rattles. When I finally got the bike back it was the cassette. I took it apart and noticed the new 11T lockring was ~2mm thicker than the 12T lockring, so it was bottoming out in the cassette well (for lack of a better word). I had two wheelsets, and two cassettes. Switching to the wheels I did not want to use, the rattle was not a problem, so I was prepared to suggest this compromise. However, another problem appeared. The chain seems to ride up on the 11T cog. Some teeth of the cog connect, but the chain rides above the teeth for about a third of the cog, iirc. I probably swapped wheels/cassette/cogs for two hours hoping for some combination of parts that worked.
So, I took the parts and the better wheels (with rattling cassette) and went to the LBS and paid them to fix both problems. I knew I needed a spacer for the rattle and after 3-4 tries they got the perfect one. I said check all the gears and the chain/11T cog problem was revealed. The mechanic was as baffled as me and said I must have bought the wrong parts, 11-speed parts, not 10-speed. Btw, the teeth on the 11T cog I bought have a slope/angle that is different from the other 9 cogs.
So, does Shimano make two different 11T cogs, one for 10-speed cassettes and another for 11-speed cassettes?
To add to my confusion, I bought an Ultegra 10-speed cassette, 11-28, at a swap meet recently and it had that same odd tooth angle, only on the 11T cog. It did not match the other 9 gears. Of course, being used, this is an unknown quantity.
Does any of this make any sense ... to anybody!!!!!!!!!!!?
Hellavu year for me so far. Been wrenching for, idk, 10-15 years, and three of the last four bikes I've worked on have been absolutely baffling, with problems that neither bike forums or the LBS could help with. Forgot to mention, this is an Ultegra equipped road bike with low miles, so I have not suspected a worn cassette - maybe a worn chain, but I doubt we have even 2K miles on the bike.
So, I took the parts and the better wheels (with rattling cassette) and went to the LBS and paid them to fix both problems. I knew I needed a spacer for the rattle and after 3-4 tries they got the perfect one. I said check all the gears and the chain/11T cog problem was revealed. The mechanic was as baffled as me and said I must have bought the wrong parts, 11-speed parts, not 10-speed. Btw, the teeth on the 11T cog I bought have a slope/angle that is different from the other 9 cogs.
So, does Shimano make two different 11T cogs, one for 10-speed cassettes and another for 11-speed cassettes?
To add to my confusion, I bought an Ultegra 10-speed cassette, 11-28, at a swap meet recently and it had that same odd tooth angle, only on the 11T cog. It did not match the other 9 gears. Of course, being used, this is an unknown quantity.
Does any of this make any sense ... to anybody!!!!!!!!!!!?
Hellavu year for me so far. Been wrenching for, idk, 10-15 years, and three of the last four bikes I've worked on have been absolutely baffling, with problems that neither bike forums or the LBS could help with. Forgot to mention, this is an Ultegra equipped road bike with low miles, so I have not suspected a worn cassette - maybe a worn chain, but I doubt we have even 2K miles on the bike.
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Sounds like you have now spent more time and money trying to adapt the 11 t cog than it is/was worth... you probably should have just purchased the 11-whatever cassette as a whole unit, and not risked damaging the hub or frame.
i've seen various designs of small cogs for various tyupes and brands of cassettes, along with nearly every new series/year of cassettes having minor changes... thickness of teeth, designs of teeth, different lock rings to fit the new designs, etc., etc..... the insets and counterbores are different, too....
How much is your time worth? how much is the cassette your son wants, new? how many trips for parts have you made? how many minute/hours have you consumed on hunting down info and parts, so far?
get the cassette.
i've seen various designs of small cogs for various tyupes and brands of cassettes, along with nearly every new series/year of cassettes having minor changes... thickness of teeth, designs of teeth, different lock rings to fit the new designs, etc., etc..... the insets and counterbores are different, too....
How much is your time worth? how much is the cassette your son wants, new? how many trips for parts have you made? how many minute/hours have you consumed on hunting down info and parts, so far?
get the cassette.
#13
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Thread Starter
Sounds like you have now spent more time and money trying to adapt the 11 t cog than it is/was worth... you probably should have just purchased the 11-whatever cassette as a whole unit, and not risked damaging the hub or frame.
i've seen various designs of small cogs for various tyupes and brands of cassettes, along with nearly every new series/year of cassettes having minor changes... thickness of teeth, designs of teeth, different lock rings to fit the new designs, etc., etc..... the insets and counterbores are different, too....
How much is your time worth? how much is the cassette your son wants, new? how many trips for parts have you made? how many minute/hours have you consumed on hunting down info and parts, so far?
get the cassette.
i've seen various designs of small cogs for various tyupes and brands of cassettes, along with nearly every new series/year of cassettes having minor changes... thickness of teeth, designs of teeth, different lock rings to fit the new designs, etc., etc..... the insets and counterbores are different, too....
How much is your time worth? how much is the cassette your son wants, new? how many trips for parts have you made? how many minute/hours have you consumed on hunting down info and parts, so far?
get the cassette.
anybody else?
#14
Full Member
all that is easy to say in retrospect (like every mistake). nobody said "DON'T DO IT!!!!" when I started this thread asking about 11T cogs. Seemed like a very reasonable approach at the time. and like I said, I did buy an 11-28 cassette. haven't had a chance to try it yet as the bike's about 50 miles from me.
anybody else?
anybody else?
#15
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Thread Starter
Don’t do it....damn too late, I fluffed around more times than I care to admit swapping out individual cogs on old cassettes to stop chain slippage etc. more often than not I get a working block that the shifting is average, much better to buy a cassette and be done with it
Well, I know about messing around with things. I mainly do vintage bikes and all my bikes are mix-and-match.
But to clarify about this case. I started with a damn-near new bike, cassette, and chain, and I wanted to swap a single cog, and at the end of the cassette at that. Seemed reasonable. Still does.
Next stop is a good LBS mechanic. If he says buy a new cassette, that's what we'll do.
Still wonder about my original question - are there two different 11T cogs? one for 10-speeds, one for 11-speed cassettes?
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Rattling would probably mean that the cassette isn't locking tightly. Since the 11T sprockets overhang slightly, mounting a thinner one (11s), would mean it wouldn't lock down tightly. You could add another spacer to the back side of the cassette... but...
There is also a 13T with and without a built-in spacer. You should have the 13T with the built-in spacer.
all that is easy to say in retrospect (like every mistake). nobody said "DON'T DO IT!!!!" when I started this thread asking about 11T cogs. Seemed like a very reasonable approach at the time. and like I said, I did buy an 11-28 cassette. haven't had a chance to try it yet as the bike's about 50 miles from me.
anybody else?
anybody else?
It should have worked... maybe... assuming you were using 10s parts, but it wouldn't have been a choice that I would have made.
Depending on the cassette you're using, I would find the gearing:
11-13-14-etc to be very annoying.
I tend to jump between 11, 12, & 13 a bit. And that missing 12T sprocket would be an annoyance.
#17
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Thread Starter
I don't know. The sprocket thickness should be similar, but spacing different for 10s and 11s. So I always assumed that the difference was made up with each individual sprocket. The part numbers appear to be different for the 6700 and 6800 11T.
Rattling would probably mean that the cassette isn't locking tightly. Since the 11T sprockets overhang slightly, mounting a thinner one (11s), would mean it wouldn't lock down tightly. You could add another spacer to the back side of the cassette... but...
There is also a 13T with and without a built-in spacer. You should have the 13T with the built-in spacer.
I must have missed the topic in January.
It should have worked... maybe... assuming you were using 10s parts, but it wouldn't have been a choice that I would have made.
Depending on the cassette you're using, I would find the gearing:
11-13-14-etc to be very annoying.
I tend to jump between 11, 12, & 13 a bit. And that missing 12T sprocket would be an annoyance.
Rattling would probably mean that the cassette isn't locking tightly. Since the 11T sprockets overhang slightly, mounting a thinner one (11s), would mean it wouldn't lock down tightly. You could add another spacer to the back side of the cassette... but...
There is also a 13T with and without a built-in spacer. You should have the 13T with the built-in spacer.
I must have missed the topic in January.
It should have worked... maybe... assuming you were using 10s parts, but it wouldn't have been a choice that I would have made.
Depending on the cassette you're using, I would find the gearing:
11-13-14-etc to be very annoying.
I tend to jump between 11, 12, & 13 a bit. And that missing 12T sprocket would be an annoyance.
yes, it certainly seems that there's more than one 11T cog in Shimano's arsenal. I see one that's clearly marked on the cog "11T, 11S". And then there's this: "Shimano Dura-Ace/Ultegra 10-Speed CS-7800/CS-6600 Cogs. Fits only Dura-Ace CS-7800, 11-21t, 11-23t, and Ultegra CS-6600, 11-23t Cog Sets." That's even more fine-grained than I would have suspected.
At any rate, I've got that recently acquired 10-speed 11-28 cassette with 11-12-13 cogs. So I'll try that next, or have the mechanic, whoever gets to the bike first.
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If your son is 50 miles away and old enough to mash a 11T.
Then it is about time for him to do his own bike maintenance.
Buy him a cassette tool, chain whip, and whatever wrench you want to go with it. It could well be a far better investment than buying him sprockets and cassettes.
Maybe build up a whole toolkit with cone wrenches (if needed), spoke wrench, and etc.
Then it is about time for him to do his own bike maintenance.
Buy him a cassette tool, chain whip, and whatever wrench you want to go with it. It could well be a far better investment than buying him sprockets and cassettes.
Maybe build up a whole toolkit with cone wrenches (if needed), spoke wrench, and etc.
#19
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Thread Starter
Back to the mechanical challenge. Thursday I went up to SF with the swap-meet 11-28 cassette and installed it without issues. The 11T looked just like the one I had previously installed, but this time, no chain/cog engagement problem. I had some indexing problems at the other end, with the 28T. I fiddled around with the barrel adjustment but could only make it worse. During the tweaking another shifting problem in the front appeared that he had also experienced on the road, where the chain would kinda land between the two chainrings and/or ride up on the small ring, not quite engaging.
At some point, he mentioned a neighborhood mechanic so we walked over and described my convoluted wrenching journey -
with used parts - that led to the present condition of the bike. Finally, the mechanic put the bike on the stand and bam-bam-bam, he knocked it out, finding three problems (one we hadn't known about) and fixed everything in 15 minutes for $15. Whew!
So, the parts I had were good (I had measured the chain and found no stretch prior to going in), the bike just needed an expert to tweak everything. He even discovered the front inner chain shift-guard (name?) had been installed backward from the get-go. For the front shifting fix, he lowered, rotated and (I think) bent the FD. Imo, both of these reflect poor assembly and QA from the factory and bike shop (thx Performance!).
Anyway, very big props to Citizen Chain, in North Beach. Great shop, mostly Italian frames/bikes, and two walls of stems and bars to modify bikes. The mechanic (Sasha?) was really great, spending additional time with my son teaching him about shifting in the hills, setting up the front/rear before steep inclines, maintaining momentum, why the front is harder to shift under load, etc. My son was soaking it up. Great experience.
ps. I've mentioned before that 99% of my wrenching has been on vintage bikes, but after this experience, I'm going to volunteer some more hours at the local bike exchange and practice on indexed systems!
Last edited by sunburst; 05-21-17 at 11:13 AM.
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